Russia Versus The Ukraine

[Illini Warrior]

Schattentarn much is hidden about the why this and why that about America. The pilgrims and puritans came namely to America to escape religious persecution and start a new way of life. To them the USA was the New Jerusalem. That being said you also had the Enlightenment they had a different vision for America. For them it was to be the new Atlantis bringing forth enlightenment and power upon a new world. Perhaps you have two America’s at work when thinking upon why people don’t understand The 2nd America She be most beguiling and does greet you everyday with her beguiling smile and her cup of enlightenment be full to overflowing. View attachment 15058View attachment 15059

sorry - but I don't care for any foreigner interpreting absolutely anything about the USA - PRO or CON ....

you can bitch & moan - or - praise all you want on a personal level >>> but don't start lecturing about something you'll never really understand ....

 

[Ling31]

sorry - but I don't care for any foreigner interpreting absolutely anything about the USA - PRO or CON ....

you can bitch & moan - or - praise all you want on a personal level >>> but don't start lecturing about something you'll never really understand ....

lllini warrior that really makes a lot of sense. I mean the people you call foreigners have only been studying and interpreting each other’s histories for hundreds & thousands of years all the way back to Herodotus . Thankfully the French foreigner Jean Champollion never followed your advice. You know the one who went on to make the breakthrough with understanding hieroglyphs from the discovery of the Rosetta Stone in Egypt. Thank you for your opinion but I will continue to express my thoughts as I please.

 

[Schattentarn]

It is simple for Ukraine. Either Russia gets the concession they want about NATO (publicly or privately) or they will invade.

 

[Ling31]

It is simple for Ukraine. Either Russia gets the concession they want about NATO (publicly or privately) or they will invade.

Let’s hope your right and sanity with good will prevails ❤ and not the profiteers of war.

 

[radiogoon]

lllini warrior that really makes a lot of sense. I mean the people you call foreigners have only been studying and interpreting each other’s histories for hundreds & thousands of years all the way back to Herodotus . Thankfully the French foreigner Jean Champollion never followed your advice. You know the one who went on to make the breakthrough with understanding hieroglyphs from the discovery of the Rosetta Stone in Egypt. Thank you for your opinion but I will continue to express my thoughts as I please.

There's a lefty response if I ever read one. Studying does not equal the experience of living here. Now do the prison colony you live in...

 

[ANACONDA]

It is simple for Ukraine. Either Russia gets the concession they want about NATO (publicly or privately) or they will invade.

There will be no concessions.

 

[GaRp58]

I have another point of view for the all of you to contemplate:
If the world had said "OK" to Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia-Herzigovina and Cosovo it would be ok to break out of old Yugoslavia...
If the world had said it would be "OK" for Vietnam, South Korea and Kuwait to break away from being part of another "nation" for whatever reasons...Kuwait was a part of the Iraq nation... and stealing oil.....
If the world now wants to say to the Russian/Crimea area to become part of the motherland again because they speak more "russian" there...
THEN the world would also have to say it is "OK" for:
Belgium to split up into 3 pieces, (Flanders do not like the "frenchies"
Spain to split up in 3 pieces, (Catalonia and Basquenland do not like Spain.
Ireland, North Ireland and Scotland would be able to leave the UK.
Corsica would no longer be "French"
The Kurds would have their own lands
The Palistinians would get their land back from the Saudi Sheik Thief "king" who now calls his land by the name of JORDAN.
Under hitler and stalin...Poland DISAPPEARED COMPLETELY!!
Hungary would go back to its original size and swallow half of Rumania, all of Slovenia, most of Croatia, most of Chech Republic, most of Slovakia and parts of Austria!!!! and become the largest nation again in Europe and my wife would become a baroness again and her family would get back the thousands of acres of land stolen by the Treaty of Versailles and then the communists back in 1956... when they "created" Yugoslavia and the other lands involved....
You cannot say for certain lands to be free but not others just because of their geographical location and the tongue or language spoken...
Where do you draw the line of where the national borders are to stay forever?? The german/french border of "Elsass" has moved 6 times, the turks invaded europe up to Vienna for 400 years, swallowing Greece, Macedonia, Cosovo, Rumania and southern Hungary... and if you look back far enough in time... with the Roman Empire...ITALY stretched from the UK all the way down to Egypt...where and who draws the line...without war?

 

[Ling31]

There's a lefty response if I ever read one. Studying does not equal the experience of living here. Now do the prison colony you live in...

Sounds like a lefty response you say. No. As to Study. Well that be one of the experiences of life. I don’t tend to discriminate between the experiences of life..As to the prison colony you say I live in . What of it ?

 

[Oddcaliber]

JMHO, from a historical perspective no invading country has ever been able to take all of Russia. Both Napoleon and Hitler have severely underestimated the capability and resiliency of the people in Russia. Extremely long supply lines and weather conditions have always been a problem. Just the vast expanse of Russia means that it would be next to impossible to occupy the entire country much less subdue it. Bidumb doesn't have a chance in Hell of winning a war with Russia. Even during the cold war there was MAD. Mutual assured destruction. In reality nobody wins.

 

[GaRp58]

Mutual assured destruction. In reality nobody wins.

Nobody ever really wins a war, they just kill enough of the "others" that they stop shooting each other. How many millions have been lost for nothing. Wanting to expand hitler destroyed his own nation, wanting to expand, napoleon destroyed his own land, wanting to expand, mussolini, franco, mao and many other "leaders" destroyed entire generations of their own sons and daughters.
How can the "neo-nazis" ever be proud to "follow" hitler, knowing he was a loser, liar, homosexual suicide victim?? What a hero...what an idol...sending 14 and 15 year old kids into war with only single grenade, a single anti-tank rocket only to commit suicide himself from fear of getting captured....
How much longer must the cannonballs fly before the human species ever realises that you can only eat, work and sleep. The rest is material and you cannot take it with you when you die...
Your life, your wife, your kids and your love is the only thing which will last, if you stay alive long enough to see your grandkids carry on in your own fashion and not be "offered" for the "great cause" of expansion...
Live free, Gary

 

[ban1985]

What MSM in Europe and the USA of course very deliberately conceal.
Volunteer Nazi paramilitaries like the ASOW battalion train civilians on weapons.
The patches on the camouflage jacket sleeves of these guys are already 100% proof of this. Our media here who always scream against right-wingers and Nazis don't say a word this time about what kind of guys are in the combat uniforms.
This is a dirty double standard, they only say how dangerous the Russians are, yes that is partly true, but ASOW and other volunteer battalions are just as dangerous and they can provoke a hot war because the Ukrainian government has no power over these institutions.



There are always two sides, and the Ukrainian side is not innocent in everything as our media always report.
I still say that if there is a hot war there, Ukraine will be a pawn, because if the Russians come, all the foreign mercenaries will quickly run home and Ukraine will be on its own.
I absolutely do not wish that for Ukraine and I hope that there will be a solution to the problem WITHOUT an invasion, but this solution must be found by Ukraine with the Russians and best of all without foreign mercenaries to whom Ukraine is only a means to an end.

 

[Schattentarn]

There will be no concessions.

I bear no ill will toward you or Ukraine but if your view prevails with your leadership, I think, unfortunately, you are going to war.

 

[Schattentarn]

What MSM in Europe and the USA of course very deliberately conceal.
Volunteer Nazi paramilitaries like the ASOW battalion train civilians on weapons.
The patches on the camouflage jacket sleeves of these guys are already 100% proof of this. Our media here who always scream against right-wingers and Nazis don't say a word this time about what kind of guys are in the combat uniforms.
This is a dirty double standard, they only say how dangerous the Russians are, yes that is partly true, but ASOW and other volunteer battalions are just as dangerous and they can provoke a hot war because the Ukrainian government has no power over these institutions.



There are always two sides, and the Ukrainian side is not innocent in everything as our media always report.
I still say that if there is a hot war there, Ukraine will be a pawn, because if the Russians come, all the foreign mercenaries will quickly run home and Ukraine will be on its own.
I absolutely do not wish that for Ukraine and I hope that there will be a solution to the problem WITHOUT an invasion, but this solution must be found by Ukraine with the Russians and best of all without foreign mercenaries to whom Ukraine is only a means to an end.

I have always been a little confused about this. Didn't Ukraine or parts of Ukraine begin on the side of the Germans? Somehow they must have been crushed because this situation is not widely discussed, at least here. Maybe you know what happened ban1985.

I had a friend in the 1970s. His parents were immigrants from "Poland". I got to know him fairly well and it seems to me his parents were Ukrainian but living or migrating to Poland after the war. This friend, Bill, hated Communists. His "Polish name" (family change it when they immigrated) really didn't should too Polish to me. At times he expressed neo-nazi views. I have often thought his father may have been in this anti-Russian army.

 

[Schattentarn]

sorry - but I don't care for any foreigner interpreting absolutely anything about the USA - PRO or CON ....

you can bitch & moan - or - praise all you want on a personal level >>> but don't start lecturing about something you'll never really understand ....

Illini Warror, this whole thread is basically non-Russians and non-Ukrainians (one exception) voicing their views on these countries about which we only know from headlines and maybe travel logs on TV.

 

[GaRp58]

voicing their views on these countries about which we only know from headlines and maybe travel logs on TV.

Very well written and understood Schattentarn...I have lived now in Europe since 1978, worked with people from many nations and married a full blood Hungarian.
Hungary was "sold" to hitler by a nazi president and suffered terribly in WWII. My wifes uncles had to hide for years in the fields and woods of the new Yugoslavia and the serbian partisans murdered tens of thousands Hungarians in the decade following the war.
My BIL from my wifes sister, was carried to Germany from the Sudetenland (Chech) as a baby and was forced into a German house-hold by the politicians, making him unwanted and unloved by the Germans left over from the war and not having enough to wear, eat and live on themselves. Firsthand hatred.
Poland ceased to exist with hitler and stalin...after being re-created in 1945, they became absolutely brutal with anyone connected to germany. Chased them on the streets and beat them to death. Nobody is more nationalistic as a Pole. Even today, you cannot advertise anything there in any language except Polish. Fines of up to $50,000 if you use a single word in an advertisement that is not Polish.
The Romanians are also very nationalistic as are the Bulgarians. At the moment, half of Romania is ex-Hungary, taken away after WWII. And they want to become a part of the real Hungary again.
The Ukrainian story is nearly the same, but the dialect is different from true Russian. They are also suffering from bad corruption, doubling of gas and electricty costs by the Hunter Biden crap. Money being laundered in Latvia by the mafia like bosses in Gov't and big companies. And now the Crimea crisis and being threatened by Russia and Nato expansionism. NO, the Ukraine may not be perfectly innocent, but by far less than Russia and its giving many Russian passports out to Crimeans who asked for them. That is making it easier to "protect Russian citizens" by Putin...
Too much political crap, too much old history and too many hot headed persons around the core of the problem wanting a piece of the action...
Another sad mistake of proud people and stupid people against each other. Half of every war is carried by each of the "warriors" involved...Gary

 

[ANACONDA]

I bear no ill will toward you or Ukraine but if your view prevails with your leadership, I think, unfortunately, you are going to war.

This is the point of view of the people of Ukraine. No one is going to bend under Russia. The government of Ukraine fully shares this point of view of the people as of 09.45, 15.02.2022.
If the president or parliament tries to go against the will of the people and conclude a separate agreement with Russia, then people will hang them on lanterns within half an hour after the publication of such an agreement ...

 

[ANACONDA]

I still say that if there is a hot war there, Ukraine will be a pawn, because if the Russians come, all the foreign mercenaries will quickly run home and Ukraine will be on its own.

There are no foreign mercenaries in Ukraine. It is regrettable that Ukraine does not have the money to pay for the services of these mercenaries.

 

[ban1985]

There are no foreign mercenaries in Ukraine. It is regrettable that Ukraine does not have the money to pay for the services of these mercenaries.

Ah yes, in German you say the en yes "Advisor" from my point of view that is almost the same as mercenaries, and some salary they get probably also.
Tell me how many of these "advisers" are in Ukraine at the moment and from which countries, and best of all how many CIA advisers and other organizations are there?

There are some people who want to help you, but there are enough foreign amateur soldiers who are in your country and hope for the big war.
No matter if they are unpaid or not, there are foreign forces with you in camouflage suits and weapons, even if they do it voluntarily, they will not be so connected to your country that they will hold the fort if the Russian really comes, for these people it is all about war, and if the Russian really comes the foreign "advisors" will be the first to run away.

 

[ban1985]

This is the point of view of the people of Ukraine. No one is going to bend under Russia. The government of Ukraine fully shares this point of view of the people as of 09.45, 15.02.2022.
If the president or parliament tries to go against the will of the people and conclude a separate agreement with Russia, then people will hang them on lanterns within half an hour after the publication of such an agreement ...

If your president would ban the ASOW battalion and other SS paramilitaries he would not survive the day either.
Your president is not bad, but tolerating paramilitaries that openly glorify Nazism and intimidate or kill their own people is not a good thing either.

In one thing your president is right, he says that at the moment the Russians are not invading Ukraine and that the EU media and governments should shut up because they always say the opposite and keep pouring gasoline on the fire.
Ukraine is currently being used, not necessarily by the Russians but by the EU and NATO, the Russians also have dirt on them, but your country is currently a pawn of NATO and believe me, if the Russians come, most of NATO will not come and leave you to your own devices.

 

[ban1985]

I have always been a little confused about this. Didn't Ukraine or parts of Ukraine begin on the side of the Germans? Somehow they must have been crushed because this situation is not widely discussed, at least here. Maybe you know what happened ban1985.

I had a friend in the 1970s. His parents were immigrants from "Poland". I got to know him fairly well and it seems to me his parents were Ukrainian but living or migrating to Poland after the war. This friend, Bill, hated Communists. His "Polish name" (family change it when they immigrated) really didn't should too Polish to me. At times he expressed neo-nazi views. I have often thought his father may have been in this anti-Russian army.

Too long history to write down everything here, there were in the past on all sides very bad incidents and they were really bad.
Stalin had also done very bad things and during WWII some Poles and Ukrainians cooperated with the Germans in the death camps and willingly denounced Jews, especially Poles.
Some were forced to do so, but there was also a dynamic, and the hatred and distrust of Russia is still great. partly understandable.

In order to give information you must either familiarize yourself with this great story and make your own picture, because I will not bring my opinion here because Anaconda would probably say everything is untrue and I don't share his opinion in everything.