Mountain Dragon
A True Doomsday Prepper
The day we find out it's one we wouldn't post it here....
Russia Versus The Ukraine
- Thread starter Jayson
- Start date
Help Support Doomsday Prepper Forums:
Mountain Dragon
A True Doomsday Prepper
Yes, we know RT is an Russian news channel. We also know we have to take the RT news with care.
But....
We might have another kind of "free speech" in Europe since beginning 2020 (well, it started earlier to be honest). We only recieve government filtered news. Everything critical or different meaning will be filtered. But no, as the gov and the media are telling there's no censorship. They just publish government friendly news only.
Those day since Russia invaded into Ukraine we hear, read or view only: Ukraine very good, close to be the holy state, Russia bad, very bad, extremly bad, may worse than Nazi-Germany, North Corea and Saddam's Iraq together.
Yes we know RT supports Russian interests of course.
But we also know our own media.
To find out how or where the truth maybe halfway could be we need both sides of propaganda.
BTW, the EU is actually by preparing an law to "reduce fake news". It means everything which the EU declares as fake news fulfills the offense of incitement of the people. Anyone who spreads such news will be liable to prosecution and may even be imprisoned in the future. We have indeed an serious problem in Europe. And the worse is, against the EU law or decisions you can't do anything really.
rainingcatzanddogs
A True Doomsday Prepper
Sorry all.
I am tired of hearing “poor Putin” he is being goaded, framed, mistreated as much as I am “poor Zelenski” he did nothing to deserve this…both of them are corrupt and dirty as joe and his pair Roman underwear.
I am tired of hearing “poor Putin” he is being goaded, framed, mistreated as much as I am “poor Zelenski” he did nothing to deserve this…both of them are corrupt and dirty as joe and his pair Roman underwear.
It's like trying to say which was the good guy and which was the bad guy between Hitler and Stalin.
rainingcatzanddogs
A True Doomsday Prepper
They are trying to do the same thing here using the department of homeland security. Asking any questions regarding the results of the election (if you are questioning something that makes the Democrats look bad) is going to be called a "conspiracy theory" and you are a "domestic terrorist" and therefore can be investigated and possibly arrested for spreading "disinformation".
This, even though even Time magazine, a major "independent" publication here flat out admitted that there was some shenanigans going on in the last election.
https://time.com/magazine/us/5936018/february-15th-2021-vol-197-no-5-u-s/
When you can no longer even ask questions arrived to when you are being told 1+1=4 and you can prove it equals 2, is a crime, your society is living in tyranny.
In Ukraine about 1000 Poles are fighting against Russians, Poles who hate Russia like the plague, well, almost all Poles hate Russia ;-)
If the Russian soldiers catch these Poles in Ukraine, they will be in a very bad position if they survive the capture, they will never see Poland again in their lives.
The Russian general Armageddon will throw these Poles in Siberia in a high-security prison and there you can then every morning you still experience in front of the Russian flag and a large image of Putin stand and your hatred of Russia to reconsider.
I think I don't have to write anything else, Russian prisons don't have the luxury of the jails here, and if 95% of imprisoned Russian criminals live there, then you as a Pole have pulled the ### card.
But just, everyone decides for his life for one side, in the end you have to bear the consequence if it comes hals otherwise.
rainingcatzanddogs
A True Doomsday Prepper
My grandfather is one of the WWII "disappeared" he was forcibly conscripted to fight for Russia and then deserted...My Grandmother's youngest brother a Polish officer, was shot at Katyn. Her father, who had worked for the Tsar, was arrested, tried without council, put on a train all within an hour or two and never heard from again. She spent time in Auschwitz for giving a First Communion necklace with a cross from my Aunt's neck, to a Jewish mother (how she got out is another story). Poles all.
My family's story is not unique.
They know what will happen to them. They do it anyway. They do it because they will not allow Russia to ever control their Country again.
Amazing how the more things change, the more they stay the same.
An interesting side note. I brought my youngest daughter with me to Poland 12 years ago. Our internal clocks were a bit messed up and she wanted some food and a glass of milk (my children didn't drink soda or artificial juice). So we ordered room service (it was about 11 pm local time).
The consierge told us they weren't sure if they had any milk but, he would see if they could find some. This was a high end hotel right next to the Presidential Palace in Warsaw (if you ever visit this place is highly recommended by me). We got the food fairly quickly but, it took over an hour to get the milk. They actually went out to find an open store.
I asked my mother what was up with that? and she explained "Poles don't drink milk in the cities. It was one of the things you couldn't get during the occupation by Russia unless you owned a cow or goat. So when you managed to get a small amount, you saved it for cooking, you didn't just drink it. It is a cultural thing."
Last edited:
I'm sorry to hear about your loved ones, and yes, it was a serh dark past that should never be repeated.
The initial situation was probably different, and Stalin was a psychopath, unfortunately, you can no longer prosecute the madman today.
I think you have to document this history and these abuses and keep alive, but you should get away from this hatred. It is not that Poles and Russians should love each other, but between these two countries there are always hate attacks and that is bad in the long run.
I have nothing against the Polish population, but the Polish government pisses the Russians for years before the feet, just the Poles demand from the Germans and Russians new payments in billions for the damage in World War II, they warm up again a closed chapter although you get enough money from the EU.
What happens in the end again and again because of such things, Poland gets once again a beating from Russia when it completely escalates, the problem is, not the Polish government that would have deserved this gets the beating, but the Polish people.
The initial situation was probably different, and Stalin was a psychopath, unfortunately, you can no longer prosecute the madman today.
I think you have to document this history and these abuses and keep alive, but you should get away from this hatred. It is not that Poles and Russians should love each other, but between these two countries there are always hate attacks and that is bad in the long run.
I have nothing against the Polish population, but the Polish government pisses the Russians for years before the feet, just the Poles demand from the Germans and Russians new payments in billions for the damage in World War II, they warm up again a closed chapter although you get enough money from the EU.
What happens in the end again and again because of such things, Poland gets once again a beating from Russia when it completely escalates, the problem is, not the Polish government that would have deserved this gets the beating, but the Polish people.
rainingcatzanddogs
A True Doomsday Prepper
Do not confuse hate with distrust and fear. I do not think Poles hate Russians any more than Russians hate Ukrainians. It is a very painfully earned fear and distrust. Trust once someone has wronged you must certainly be earned.
One of the reasons Putin gave for going into Ukraine, his initial complaint, was that "the west" was going to use Ukraine to attack Russia. It was his justification for his actions to "Protect Russia". No proof was ever presented.
Looking at it from the standpoint of the Poles and Lithuanians. They have been told Russia has "changed" its ways and yet it still sees how political dissidents and news media not controlled by the state are routinely poisoned, tripping out of third story windows, imprisoned, tortured or otherwise experience a premature death. Just like the past.
They hear Putin talking how ALL Slavs are one family and should be united under one leadership. They watched as he marched into Crimea without discussion with Ukraine and just took what he wanted. Just like the past.
They see how the west responded to Crimea and did nothing, just like in the past.
He is grabbing people out of their homes, from their work places, from the streets and forcibly making them fight. Just like in the past.
It would be nice to say people should just "get over it it is in the past" but, until there is some real change in behavior demonstrated in the present, that will not happen, nor should it.
Germany and the atrocities of Hitler have not been forgotten but, because Germany has demonstrated real reforms, they are largely forgiven.
Ronald Reagan had a saying here when it came to the Russians ; Trust but verify.
I do not hate the Russian government and certainly not its people. I do however, not trust that they have changed their Totalitarian policies much when it can be demonstrated they have not.
Last edited:
You are right about many things, but not about others. The Ukrainian army has been shelling eastern Ukraine for years at the behest of its own government. The Russian language was banned, and the eastern Ukrainian minorities were suppressed.
All parties and news channels that do not endorse Zelensky's opinion were banned even before the Russian invasion.
Ukraine also has a big NAZI problem, these types are freely roaming around without fear of punishment and terrorizing the population.
Before the Russians took the Crimea, Europe and the USA provoked a lot that it came to the fall of the Ukrainian government at that time.
Putin is not clan, I agree, but watch out for Zelensky, this guy is the abysmal evil and a deceiver, he is the same dog as Grandpa Joe and has the same interests to plunge the world into an abyss.
As long as in Ukraine Nazis have the say and the civilian population is terrorized and killed by their own government and by Nazis, so long no one has to tell me that only Russia is evil
All parties and news channels that do not endorse Zelensky's opinion were banned even before the Russian invasion.
Ukraine also has a big NAZI problem, these types are freely roaming around without fear of punishment and terrorizing the population.
Before the Russians took the Crimea, Europe and the USA provoked a lot that it came to the fall of the Ukrainian government at that time.
Putin is not clan, I agree, but watch out for Zelensky, this guy is the abysmal evil and a deceiver, he is the same dog as Grandpa Joe and has the same interests to plunge the world into an abyss.
As long as in Ukraine Nazis have the say and the civilian population is terrorized and killed by their own government and by Nazis, so long no one has to tell me that only Russia is evil
rainingcatzanddogs
A True Doomsday Prepper
We will have to agree to disagree.
Russia also "provoked" by using Russification of the borderlands for generations...so it can be seen both are guilty for the present situations.
I know Zelenski is a snake but one snake successfully eating another, does not make me feel any better because, that usually means the bigger, more dangerous snake can go on emboldened to do it again.
Trust but, verify. It is especially true of media sources (I say this as a former Journalism and Mass Communications Major). Wiser words have never been spoken.
Last edited:
I would change that all to "do not trust and even after verifying", Stalin made a pact with Hitler and BOTH of them had NO PLAN to ever keep that pact...evil leaders will ALWAYS do, say or sign that which gets them further and on the better side of any situation...mark my words.
The Austrians did the same to over 50 Hungarian Generals. Invited them to a PEACE meeting, had them surrounded, arrested, no trial just HUNG like criminals. They broke the back of the Hungarian revolt that would have made them a free people again and not a part of the Austrian "Hungaro" Empire, not a part of the WWI and definitely not a part of "WWII" Hitlers Helpers after being treasonously "sold" to Hitler and sent to fight against Stalin as cannon fodder.
I have seen children fight in the place of their fallen fathers and "big, bad, tough" Neo-nazis run and cry like teen-age girls when the shooting started. I do not trust, I force all to go thru the fire with me before I accept them and believe that they could be trusted...but I do not trust. Experience is the best teacher and I learned the hard way.
The Austrians did the same to over 50 Hungarian Generals. Invited them to a PEACE meeting, had them surrounded, arrested, no trial just HUNG like criminals. They broke the back of the Hungarian revolt that would have made them a free people again and not a part of the Austrian "Hungaro" Empire, not a part of the WWI and definitely not a part of "WWII" Hitlers Helpers after being treasonously "sold" to Hitler and sent to fight against Stalin as cannon fodder.
I have seen children fight in the place of their fallen fathers and "big, bad, tough" Neo-nazis run and cry like teen-age girls when the shooting started. I do not trust, I force all to go thru the fire with me before I accept them and believe that they could be trusted...but I do not trust. Experience is the best teacher and I learned the hard way.
rainingcatzanddogs
A True Doomsday Prepper
@GaRp58 , I am not as familiar with Hungarian history. What happened after the war when the curtain came down?
In Poland and Ukraine, even before the end of the war, like Germany, Russia banned the native people from speaking their native language even in their own homes…to be clear, these people had not moved to Russia or Germany. Those countries moved into another country and then told them they could not speak or conduct business in their native language or risk being fined, arrested or just shot on sight so, in a way, what happened on the borderlands in Ukraine was a tit for tat. Old tactics but, well worn ones.
Personally, I don’t think when you move to another country you should expect for schools, businesses, government forms, to necessarily accommodate your specific language. In the US that would mean over 300 languages. It would be a tower of Babel.
If I visit a country that does not speak English primarily, I learn that language at least well enough to get around. I went to France. I learned French. I went to Germany. I spoke German. I went to Poland. I spoke Polish. I went to Russia, I spoke Russian. Most of them, I have long since forgotten more than I remember.
I spoke none of them very well (except I was told, by a native that I had absolutely no accent with my Polish, and they had no idea I was American). Sometimes, I made mistakes that got an amused smile, but, I think they appreciated my efforts none-the less. I was a guest and didn't expect them to bend over backwards for me.
If I was to move to another country, I would no longer be a guest, I would be a resident. It would be upon me to learn to read, write and speak it very well with an expectation of it becoming my public language. I would expect (unless I sent them to a private school) my children be taught in that language. I would speak (as my mother did) to my children or family, in my native tongue but, I would not be expecting others outside my home to accommodate for me.
My grandmother rarely spoke English and never became a citizen (she also never remarried and held onto the hope one day her husband might be found and they would both die in Poland). She learned to understand it by watching...SOAP OPERAS! She would speak Polish to me and I would speak English back. It was the easiest for both of us that way (Plus then, my dad was at least keeping track of half of the conversation).
In Poland and Ukraine, even before the end of the war, like Germany, Russia banned the native people from speaking their native language even in their own homes…to be clear, these people had not moved to Russia or Germany. Those countries moved into another country and then told them they could not speak or conduct business in their native language or risk being fined, arrested or just shot on sight so, in a way, what happened on the borderlands in Ukraine was a tit for tat. Old tactics but, well worn ones.
Personally, I don’t think when you move to another country you should expect for schools, businesses, government forms, to necessarily accommodate your specific language. In the US that would mean over 300 languages. It would be a tower of Babel.
If I visit a country that does not speak English primarily, I learn that language at least well enough to get around. I went to France. I learned French. I went to Germany. I spoke German. I went to Poland. I spoke Polish. I went to Russia, I spoke Russian. Most of them, I have long since forgotten more than I remember.
I spoke none of them very well (except I was told, by a native that I had absolutely no accent with my Polish, and they had no idea I was American). Sometimes, I made mistakes that got an amused smile, but, I think they appreciated my efforts none-the less. I was a guest and didn't expect them to bend over backwards for me.
If I was to move to another country, I would no longer be a guest, I would be a resident. It would be upon me to learn to read, write and speak it very well with an expectation of it becoming my public language. I would expect (unless I sent them to a private school) my children be taught in that language. I would speak (as my mother did) to my children or family, in my native tongue but, I would not be expecting others outside my home to accommodate for me.
My grandmother rarely spoke English and never became a citizen (she also never remarried and held onto the hope one day her husband might be found and they would both die in Poland). She learned to understand it by watching...SOAP OPERAS! She would speak Polish to me and I would speak English back. It was the easiest for both of us that way (Plus then, my dad was at least keeping track of half of the conversation).
Last edited:
rainingcatzanddogs
A True Doomsday Prepper
I am not big on "Reparations" especially if not paid directly to those who were the actual victims of injustice, certainly not to a government that would probably waste 95% of it on bureaucracy and corruption.
But, for reference, Poland did not start WWII. They Invaded no one. They were too weak. All they could do was try to hold their ground and try to get their country back from the damage done during the partitions.
What is more pertinant at the moment though is the fate that met many of the Polish Home Army, The Resistance forces, who were fighting to be free of both Russia and Germany during the Warsaw Uprising of 1945 (fought against the NAZI's) While the Russians (the so-called Eastern Allies), sat on the sidelines a few miles away and watched the slaughter.
After the war, Stalin couldn't have such "rebels" who only wanted an independent Poland, exist in lands that he wanted to control so...
"Most soldiers of the (Polish) Home Army (including those who took part in the Warsaw Uprising) were persecuted after the war; captured by the NKVD or UB political police. They were interrogated and imprisoned on various charges, such as that of fascism."
So when I hear the Russians call the Ukrainians fascists, I take it with more than a grain of salt. The new Putin playbook is too close to Stalin's for comfort.
History and rhetoric/propaganda has a way of replaying itself like an old record.
The thing I try to remember, which is relevant today, is the way things are headed now, listening to the way our President is demonizing people from the MAGA's (who are also ironically being called Fascists) to the Farmers, may we all sometime soon, be involuntary categorized as members of a "resistance" simply by not going along with the socialist plan?
Last edited:
Sorry to deviate from your statement totally, Poland (or its leader) was definitely partially at fault for its invasion. After Hitler took power in 1933, Polands president wrote Neville Chamberlain in England and to France that they must immediately re-invade Germany and take Hitler down. Both nations denied this as they were just coming out of a depression in both lands.
England had just lost Pakistan and India to their own independance and still had large sums of debts to America from the First World War...as did France also.
France was politically unstable and had problems with corruption. On top of that, the Germans were NOT paying the reparations demanded of them from the "winning" powers in the Treaty of Versailles, which was a total of
132 Billion "goldmarks".
England and France had older industrial complexes, Germany had become new money from the Dawes plan in 1924 and the Young plan from 1929.
England and France were not ready or willing to face a new war with Germany while the Germans living in Dansk in Poland were being chased on the streets like dogs and beaten to death by Polish faschists, inspired by the faschists in Italy, and then, the The Locarno Treaty with Germany guaranteeing the borders of Chechloslovakia, Poland, France and Belgium was believed by all to keep Germany "down to a small problem"....
1936, Robert Beck again wrote England to attack Germany with France to defeat Hitler and Hitler had repeatedly told the Polish people and gov't to stop attacking Germanen in Poland...again Chamberlain and France told Poland to stay quiet and leave Hitler alone even after he had "assumed" Austria, Sudetenland and was looking into writing the Molotow-Ribbentrop-Pakt with Russia and Stalin.
The 1st of September 1939, proved all to be wrong and we all know the rest of the story.
I am not saying and never will say the Polish people were absolutely innocent or totally at guilt, but they were and still are a very nationalistic folk. Even today, their laws are so nationalistic...if you make any advertisement for your "polish" company, use any words in this advertisement "other than polish language" you pay a fine of €50,000.
Like many nations in Europe, they are proud of their heritage, language, history and are somewhat still mad at each other for the thousand years of steady changing of borders, takeovers from other nations and mass executions of many of their military and political persons by "other nations". The 30 year war, the 100 year war, the Napoleon war, Sweden and Denmark attacking northern Europe (protestants against catholics), WW I, WWII and STILL TODAY, the war in Ukraine proves that the people here are warlike and HAVE NOT LEARNED:
Nobody WINS a war, everybody suffers, the women have to rebuild and the children are taught to HATE for the next generation of wars....LIVE FREE, Gary
andrewOz
Active Member
A more generic representation:
Just because one "side" in a conflict is supposedly bad, does not imply the other "side" is good.
andrewOz
Active Member
It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong.
- Voltaire
It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong.
- Voltaire
To learn who rules over you simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize
– Voltaire
rainingcatzanddogs
A True Doomsday Prepper
No problem on the deviation. I do not mind learning new info. It is rare that no fault can ever be put on one side in any conflict. There is always an Action-Reaction that leads up to these things like dominos.
Germany over the centuries had also practiced German "settlements" in Poland but, they sent men to marry Polish women, not realizing that it would be the women who raised the children in their culture and with their religious beliefs, rather than the man's. So there is some history there as well.
Not saying that Poland didn't try the same in Prussia and Ukraine...it is a common practice. The Ukrainians didn't much care for the Polish settlers either, and would randomly kill them, just to note.
My grandmother had said of her time growing up (she was born in 1912) until WWII "Everyone was killing everyone". Germans/Austrians were killing Poles, Chech's, Hungarians and Ukrainians. Ukrainians were killing Poles, Austrians, Germans and Russians. Poles were killing Germans, Austrians, Ukrainians, and Russians. The Bolsheviks were killing anyone who they believed stood in the way of their manmade Utopia....trying to unknot that ball of yarn is hopeless. Provocation takes many forms, not just rhetoric or saber rattling.
To this day, I do know that Poland has its problems and faults (Don't we all?). I do wonder however if the world had at least stepped in to stop Hitler earlier (not necessarily attack), as suggested, if perhaps, WWII could have been avoided. Perhaps though, it might have only hastened its start.
You are correct in that they are in modern times a somewhat closed society; suspicious of other cultures, religions and nations. As you also pointed out, they have been in turmoil for many hundreds of years. With the government of Poland being in exile in London during the pre-wwii years, the chaos was exacerbated. Leading a government via telephone or snail mail correspondence, is not very accurate.
"Poland first!" was, and is kind of their motto since the fall of the wall. Whether that is the attitude of Poland, Ukraine or as we saw here in America with President Trump, that does not make them Fascists!
They will never admit it but, they are afraid. Fear has a way of making choices for you that are not always thought through.
We have a saying here with Cow folk. "Bravery, is being scared to death but, getting into the saddle anyway." We don't need bravery in our leaders, we need wisdom.
Just as we are seeing happening here and other places at the moment, before-WWII you had two choices for the direction of your government.
You are either a Communist or you are a Fascist. Both are forms of Socialism so, you only have one choice, you are simply delineating the ideology. Left road or right road. They are both going the same direction toward less individual freedom.
Yes, the European argument has been exported here and it is deviant!
Poland had, for a very long time (prior to the Deluge), been heading down a path of Republicanism. Not an American version, but, its own form. All of that went into the toilet in the chaos that followed for two hundred years.
Even when I was in old town Warsaw, there was a Fascist demonstration. All 8 of them were marching beating base drums down the street in front of the Presidential residence (which is mere feet from the street and far less "isolated" than our White House), chanting "Kill the Communists, boom, boom, boom!".
No one was paying them any heed and just walking to wherever they were going. There were no crowds cheering or any onlookers (even the tourists who had no idea what was being chanted). They were ignored despite all of the ruckus they were creating.
I personally found it somewhat heartening that they were able to exercise their free speech and the crowd was allowed to simply ignore it. The Fascists were seemingly contented with having their say and that was the end of it. No verbal conflicts, no fights...people simply acted as if they were not there! The opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference.
As far as I can see, there are Fascist in Poland, just as there are everywhere (including The Ukraine), but, they have very little support in the general population. To say that it is a "problem" there, I think is a bit of a red herring. It is what happens when speech is free. You must tolerate all kinds of speech, even the kinds you don't like.
The real danger I see, is that in much of Europe your choice is either the path towards Communism or Fascism. Period. You must choose an ideology of socialism so pick one; that one path or the other eventually leads to an extreme end should not come as a surprise when the journey reaches its final destination.
This is why Socialism in any form CANNOT be allowed any foothold here in the US!
We are a Republic, not a Democracy. The highest law in the country is the oldest, most stable, Constitution in the world, not the federal bureaucracy or mob rule!
Last edited:
Well said, well accepted lady. We all have a lot to learn from the past, if not...it will come back to haunt us again and history will be repeating itself in the Ukraine again as Serbia/Croatia/Bosnia. Modern times with old times hatred. Man is such a stupid animal. Animals are my favorite humans.
Mountain Dragon
A True Doomsday Prepper
You may still remember Brigitte Bardot, the french actress?
She said "Since i know the humans i love the animals"
I do agree.
