With things getting out of hand and the future of society in the balance, I have a worst case scenario to discuss here. Lets say you found yourself in a situation without a flushing toilet and have to depend on a bucket, but the environment you are in limits the options for emptying it. Say, for example, you are in an area with exposed bedrock and little topsoil with no ability to dig and have little debris to cover the waste. It adds up. I am interested in learning the best ways to treat such waste to make it safe other than walking a mile to dump it.
I have read that Ecoli dies below a pH of 2.7, thrives about neutral, give or take 1.5 on the scale, and again dies above 10. Interestingly, a quick google search suggests the neutral range is the optimum pH of a healthy septic system (which isn't an option in this theoretical discussion, just laying some groundwork here), so some other mechanism must be at play there. I assume the other bacteria in that septic system are killing all the dangerous stuff like ecoli, staph and salmonella. I have to assume that, because several experiences in life suggest poo is not as dangerous as the internet would have you believe it is. Let me left turn for a few personal observations quick.
When I was a kid, we had a ditch between fields we would catch tadpoles in and float a little rubber raft in. It was our little pond whenever it happened to have water. Years later, when the septic failed, we discovered that ditch was our drain field. Surrounded by farmland, I never really noticed a smell and I was too young to understand anyhow. We never got sick. At the age of about 5, again, not knowing any better, I would ride my bike through the water that came out of the pipe in grandmas yard (until I got yelled at). I thought it was from the well pit bilge (that the well pit didn't even have) Again, never got sick. Then I moved to a farm where our landlord told us we had to pump our own holding tank onto the field, and being on a farm, it was legal. Being broke, we did. 50' from the front door, we never got sick, and we did that often (it was a small tank). Then I worked for another neighbor doing porta-potties, not the cleanest job, but I never got sick there either, even while frequently getting it on me. And once every 3 weeks or so, the tank we dumped our truck into had a bigger truck come and pump that out. One day, I saw that same truck unloading in a field a mile or so behind our house. I asked the guy and he said he had a permit and he had been using that field for a while. I frequently walked through that field before knowing that, and again, I don't recall getting sick.. Then there are city sewer lines that break and someone has to get in the hole and fix it... See where I'm going with this? When we moved up north, we started with a composing toilet, and anyone with a female in the household who has used one daily knows they don't keep up. It got filthy and i had to constantly empty it. Again, not once getting sick. Disgusted yes, but never sick. Ever been camping in a public campground and wonder about the tank flies landing on every surface you touch within a half mile, well I don't, I never got sick... Just to send the point home, SanDiego has a sidewalk poop map and nobody seems to care.
I'm not advocating for the absolute disregard for safety by telling these stories, just trying to put real world experience up against an internet full of articles telling me to be terrified of human waste. I want to understand what makes a situation dangerous. For poo to contain exotic pathogens, the pooper must already have them, so there's that too. Obviously, with the bucket, it has no holding tank and no good bacteria to help out, so what is a person to do without a tank? I have read that ecoli can build up tolerance to acidic environments, but that a pH of 12 kills ecoli in 24 hours, salmonella in 1/2 hour, and avian flu in 10 minutes reliably (probably why farmers like lime, not just for the calcium). So, does a person hope and pray they have limestone or clam shells nearby and can burn some to make their own slaked lime? Wood ash also raises pH above 12, but I find little useful info on it's use with wastes, mostly just poo fear-mongering with every search. Before the composting toilet disaster, we used a bucket. We had organics like peat and sawdust and plenty of material to properly bury it, we even treated the area with permethrin and malathion to kill anything that would land in the area, but there may come a time that it is not so easily dealt with. Initially, we did not separate the "two", and boy would it stink if you got lazy about it. But one thing I wonder there is whether the internet is even right about separating them. Sure, it smells much better keeping the poo dry and away from urine, but when they are together, it starts to smell like ammonia. Now, I never pH tested my shit bucket, but I know ammonia is strongly basic. I am not sure if it takes an acidic environment for the bacteria to start attacking the urea, but something happens where ammonia results, lots of it. Could the ammonia, being it is a very strong base, also be serving to kill off the ecoli? I don't know, but we never got sick.
It seems to me that there are several routes that naturally destroy dangerous pathogens, but my question is what is best if you find yourself stranded in a mountainous or rocky region in a little shack? Do you keep the poo dry like the two-bucket method says and treat the area you dump it, or do you add water and base to that #2 bucket to raise the pH for a day first? What are the honest, no government bs options to keep your family safe in that situation? Sorry, I know its not a nice topic, just really curious about this as we might one day become a "developing country" again.
I have read that Ecoli dies below a pH of 2.7, thrives about neutral, give or take 1.5 on the scale, and again dies above 10. Interestingly, a quick google search suggests the neutral range is the optimum pH of a healthy septic system (which isn't an option in this theoretical discussion, just laying some groundwork here), so some other mechanism must be at play there. I assume the other bacteria in that septic system are killing all the dangerous stuff like ecoli, staph and salmonella. I have to assume that, because several experiences in life suggest poo is not as dangerous as the internet would have you believe it is. Let me left turn for a few personal observations quick.
When I was a kid, we had a ditch between fields we would catch tadpoles in and float a little rubber raft in. It was our little pond whenever it happened to have water. Years later, when the septic failed, we discovered that ditch was our drain field. Surrounded by farmland, I never really noticed a smell and I was too young to understand anyhow. We never got sick. At the age of about 5, again, not knowing any better, I would ride my bike through the water that came out of the pipe in grandmas yard (until I got yelled at). I thought it was from the well pit bilge (that the well pit didn't even have) Again, never got sick. Then I moved to a farm where our landlord told us we had to pump our own holding tank onto the field, and being on a farm, it was legal. Being broke, we did. 50' from the front door, we never got sick, and we did that often (it was a small tank). Then I worked for another neighbor doing porta-potties, not the cleanest job, but I never got sick there either, even while frequently getting it on me. And once every 3 weeks or so, the tank we dumped our truck into had a bigger truck come and pump that out. One day, I saw that same truck unloading in a field a mile or so behind our house. I asked the guy and he said he had a permit and he had been using that field for a while. I frequently walked through that field before knowing that, and again, I don't recall getting sick.. Then there are city sewer lines that break and someone has to get in the hole and fix it... See where I'm going with this? When we moved up north, we started with a composing toilet, and anyone with a female in the household who has used one daily knows they don't keep up. It got filthy and i had to constantly empty it. Again, not once getting sick. Disgusted yes, but never sick. Ever been camping in a public campground and wonder about the tank flies landing on every surface you touch within a half mile, well I don't, I never got sick... Just to send the point home, SanDiego has a sidewalk poop map and nobody seems to care.
I'm not advocating for the absolute disregard for safety by telling these stories, just trying to put real world experience up against an internet full of articles telling me to be terrified of human waste. I want to understand what makes a situation dangerous. For poo to contain exotic pathogens, the pooper must already have them, so there's that too. Obviously, with the bucket, it has no holding tank and no good bacteria to help out, so what is a person to do without a tank? I have read that ecoli can build up tolerance to acidic environments, but that a pH of 12 kills ecoli in 24 hours, salmonella in 1/2 hour, and avian flu in 10 minutes reliably (probably why farmers like lime, not just for the calcium). So, does a person hope and pray they have limestone or clam shells nearby and can burn some to make their own slaked lime? Wood ash also raises pH above 12, but I find little useful info on it's use with wastes, mostly just poo fear-mongering with every search. Before the composting toilet disaster, we used a bucket. We had organics like peat and sawdust and plenty of material to properly bury it, we even treated the area with permethrin and malathion to kill anything that would land in the area, but there may come a time that it is not so easily dealt with. Initially, we did not separate the "two", and boy would it stink if you got lazy about it. But one thing I wonder there is whether the internet is even right about separating them. Sure, it smells much better keeping the poo dry and away from urine, but when they are together, it starts to smell like ammonia. Now, I never pH tested my shit bucket, but I know ammonia is strongly basic. I am not sure if it takes an acidic environment for the bacteria to start attacking the urea, but something happens where ammonia results, lots of it. Could the ammonia, being it is a very strong base, also be serving to kill off the ecoli? I don't know, but we never got sick.
It seems to me that there are several routes that naturally destroy dangerous pathogens, but my question is what is best if you find yourself stranded in a mountainous or rocky region in a little shack? Do you keep the poo dry like the two-bucket method says and treat the area you dump it, or do you add water and base to that #2 bucket to raise the pH for a day first? What are the honest, no government bs options to keep your family safe in that situation? Sorry, I know its not a nice topic, just really curious about this as we might one day become a "developing country" again.
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