Healthcare

[Brent S]

Every time I hear about a school building a new football stadium, ‘because the kids deserve it’ I want to puke. Also, why can’t anyone just build a normal building for schools? They are all architectural wonders with round arched roofs and all kinds of expensive crap. Solid, storm resistant construction dosent have to cost millions of dollars. Teachers salaries are only a small portion of the money spent on education. I do agree with the above comments about not being able to fire under achieving teachers. There are some really good ones in public schools and some really bad ones. Any system that protects every employee regardless as to how good or bad they are needs some adjustments.

 

[Doreena]

Doreena,

Let me go back. You said a degree in education is a difficult degree to get. Let me ask more about that.

Back when rocks were first invented, I got a degree in engineering from a prestigious university. I had many friends who either didn't or couldn't do the work and failed engineering classes. I remember the first calculus class, the professor said only 1/3rd of students would get a passing grade. And if you didn't pass that, 95% chance you're out of the engineering program. Those students who failed moved into "easier" programs to get a degree. Technician degrees, hotel management, communications, English, underwater basket weaving, there were lots of other programs that people could complete. I call those "easier degrees". That also means they paid LESS after graduation.

So you said a degree in education is "hard". Can you give me a few examples of degrees that students who couldn't complete their education studies would switch to, that was easier and that they could complete? Or, what would you call an "easy" college degree? And you can also translate that to ask, "what degrees should earn less than an educator?". I know there are some, probably many.

Since I am not where I have access to statistics, I will only give you examples that may or may not be typical, but I have seen students go into law enforcement, humanities and associates degrees when they could not complete the ED degree. I do not know if they were successful or not in their new program of study. Since I am not in any of these fields I do not know how they pay, but the associate degrees can pay fairly well in some areas.


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[Robinjopo1]

At my daughter's school there was a no fundraiser position adapted the first year.

Each family gave an amount of cash, usually $100.

Didn't have to worry about the door to door and pestering the family stuff. Plus, you knew exactly how much the teachers actually received.

The money was divided and disbursed each quarter. So much better than selling candy bars and receiving a few cents per bar.

 

[Robinjopo1]

Every time I hear about a school building a new football stadium, ‘because the kids deserve it’ I want to puke. Also, why can’t anyone just build a normal building for schools? They are all architectural wonders with round arched roofs and all kinds of expensive crap. Solid, storm resistant construction dosent have to cost millions of dollars. Teachers salaries are only a small portion of the money spent on education. I do agree with the above comments about not being able to fire under achieving teachers. There are some really good ones in public schools and some really bad ones. Any system that protects every employee regardless as to how good or bad they are needs some adjustments.

All schools in this county are built with the same design. It changes from elementary to middle and high schools.

 

[Robinjopo1]

With today’s economy making nearly every family need two incomes, homeschooling is a luxury many cannot afford. And as I said before, not everyone is qualified to homeschool. The children would have to have some sort of interim system as adjustments are made.


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Today's economy does not require two parent incomes.

The lifestyles chosen dictate the income necessary.

 

[KateMTx]

Doreena,

Let me go back. You said a degree in education is a difficult degree to get. Let me ask more about that.

Back when rocks were first invented, I got a degree in engineering from a prestigious university. I had many friends who either didn't or couldn't do the work and failed engineering classes. I remember the first calculus class, the professor said only 1/3rd of students would get a passing grade. And if you didn't pass that, 95% chance you're out of the engineering program. Those students who failed moved into "easier" programs to get a degree. Technician degrees, hotel management, communications, English, underwater basket weaving, there were lots of other programs that people could complete. I call those "easier degrees". That also means they paid LESS after graduation.

So you said a degree in education is "hard". Can you give me a few examples of degrees that students who couldn't complete their education studies would switch to, that was easier and that they could complete? Or, what would you call an "easy" college degree? And you can also translate that to ask, "what degrees should earn less than an educator?". I know there are some, probably many.

Politicians should earn less than teachers. They provide far less benefit.

 

[KateMTx]

Today's economy does not require two parent incomes.

The lifestyles chosen dictate the income necessary.

It depends on circumstances as well as lifestyle.

 

[Proud Prepper]

I am sure that teachers and other professions that don’t get top pay realize some of what they are in for, but that is not an excuse for under paying them. Else, we get stuck with the dregs. That is the way capitalism works.


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It's not capitalism that gets us stuck with dregs, it's the socialism that you infuse into the capitalism, teacher unions, government controls and regulations.

 

[TexasFreedom]

Politicians should earn less than teachers. They provide far less benefit.

I agree with bad politicians. But a quality politician should be worth far more.

Since I am not where I have access to statistics, I will only give you examples that may or may not be typical, but I have seen students go into law enforcement, humanities and associates degrees when they could not complete the ED degree. I do not know if they were successful or not in their new program of study. Since I am not in any of these fields I do not know how they pay, but the associate degrees can pay fairly well in some areas.

Doreena, I don't think you can compare law enforcement jobs, the danger warrants greater pay. But in my county, a 'starting' deputy can qualify for welfare with how little they are paid. An associate degree is just a 2-year diploma, not a full degree so I'm not really thinking of that. I think you make a good point with a 'humanities' degree. I had to search for what can you do with a humanities degree! Guess what I found: https://study.com/articles/25_Great_Jobs_for_Humanities_Majors.html

Yup, first thing in the list was teacher! But everything else was mostly lame jobs: travel agent, event organizer, advertising manager, journalist, human resources manager. Just about every job on the list could be done without the degree. I don't mean to put those jobs down, I mean to put down that a college degree is req'd to do them. They take hard work, and a humanities degree really doesn't help doing them, rather I'd prefer someone get 4 years on-the-job experience vs a humanities degree.

Can you name some degrees someone who drops out of their education degree go into where on average they'll get a better salary?

 

[Doreena]

I agree with bad politicians. But a quality politician should be worth far more.



Doreena, I don't think you can compare law enforcement jobs, the danger warrants greater pay. But in my county, a 'starting' deputy can qualify for welfare with how little they are paid. An associate degree is just a 2-year diploma, not a full degree so I'm not really thinking of that. I think you make a good point with a 'humanities' degree. I had to search for what can you do with a humanities degree! Guess what I found: https://study.com/articles/25_Great_Jobs_for_Humanities_Majors.html

Yup, first thing in the list was teacher! But everything else was mostly lame jobs: travel agent, event organizer, advertising manager, journalist, human resources manager. Just about every job on the list could be done without the degree. I don't mean to put those jobs down, I mean to put down that a college degree is req'd to do them. They take hard work, and a humanities degree really doesn't help doing them, rather I'd prefer someone get 4 years on-the-job experience vs a humanities degree.

Can you name some degrees someone who drops out of their education degree go into where on average they'll get a better salary?

I don’t have any hard statistics, but I have heard of ED majors switching to science fields after taking some of the required courses in that field.


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[TexasFreedom]

I don’t have any hard statistics, but I have heard of ED majors switching to science fields after taking some of the required courses in that field.

Are you saying students were failing in the ED major and switched successfully to a science degree?

 

[Doreena]

Are you saying students were failing in the ED major and switched successfully to a science degree?

I would have to confirm that they completed the degree, but it was my understanding they did.


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[TexasFreedom]

I would have to confirm that they completed the degree, but it was my understanding they did.

Let me clarify. They were failing out of the ED program? Not just changing majors, everyone does that. I'm talking about someone who couldn't handle the class workload in ED but could in a science curriculum?

 

[KateMTx]

Let me clarify. They were failing out of the ED program? Not just changing majors, everyone does that. I'm talking about someone who couldn't handle the class workload in ED but could in a science curriculum?

Some people do better with more objective subjects like math and science than subjective ones, and the way education is taught does have a lot of the subjective side to it. So while it is probably not common, I would believe that it has happened that someone who could not get a degree in education was nevertheless able to pass science courses.

 

[Doreena]

Let me clarify. They were failing out of the ED program? Not just changing majors, everyone does that. I'm talking about someone who couldn't handle the class workload in ED but could in a science curriculum?

Yes, they failed the proficiency exam.


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[tmttactical]

In my mind PPD (pee poor Decisions) does not constitute a tax payer funded emergency. You spend 4 to 6 years in college, go $100,000 to $200,000 deep in debt for a job the a pays $30,000 to $40,000 a year. Now who is the idiot, the teacher or the taxpayer for feeling sorry for these poor decisions. Now change the job tittle, I did all this for a job programming computers, still feel sorry for me? I seriously doubt it. People try to make teaching some noble calling, it is a job, to most of the teachers. That is why they wanted a union and civil service protection, because it really is just a job to the majority. Not some higher calling to preserve humanity.

 

[KateMTx]

In my mind PPD (pee poor Decisions) does not constitute a tax payer funded emergency. You spend 4 to 6 years in college, go $100,000 to $200,000 deep in debt for a job the a pays $30,000 to $40,000 a year. Now who is the idiot, the teacher or the taxpayer for feeling sorry for these poor decisions. Now change the job tittle, I did all this for a job programming computers, still feel sorry for me? I seriously doubt it. People try to make teaching some noble calling, it is a job, to most of the teachers. That is why they wanted a union and civil service protection, because it really is just a job to the majority. Not some higher calling to preserve humanity.

That's why they should be paid based on their worth. A good teacher is invaluable. A not-so-good teacher? Not so much. The unions haven't helped anything, but neither have the ones complaining that "teachers make too much." It should be based on each ones performance and worth, which would be a lot easier if it were controlled at a state/local level than by the federal government.

 

[tmttactical]

That's why they should be paid based on their worth. A good teacher is invaluable. A not-so-good teacher? Not so much. The unions haven't helped anything, but neither have the ones complaining that "teachers make too much." It should be based on each ones performance and worth, which would be a lot easier if it were controlled at a state/local level than by the federal government.

When the system makes teachers and school districts accountable, then I will be open to setting proper pay scales. When students have to spend weeks just focusing on being able to pass the standards tests, then something is wrong. When we have some of the highest per capita spending and rank near the bottom of the educational scores, something is wrong. It maybe the liberal way to just dump money on a problem but that has never fixed any problem, just made the people running the problem organization more inefficient. When teachers are measured by their students SAT scores, then come talk to me about proper pay scales. When teachers contend that all teachers should be paid the same, I agree, pay them the dregs wages until they agree to remove all the dregs. Then and only then will the tax payer get what they are paying for. High pay for quality teachers and properly run school districts. Until then, they get what they have aligned with, the dregs. Am I an expert. Maybe - Maybe not but I have attended over 16 schools during my educational career, in different states, different countries and different cities. Out of all those schools, districts, states, and countries --- only four teachers stood out. What does that tell you? It is a job for most and should be treated like any other work place employment. It is not akin to the holy grail. It is not a noble profession, they do not risk their liver to teach. It is job, just that simple.

 

[TexasFreedom]

KateM makes a great point. A really big, huge point. Let me translate:

Let the market decide. Let me use socialists favorite example: Sweden. People think they've implemented socialism successfully.

Well, about 1/2 of schools in Sweden are PRIVATE schools. Sweden uses the voucher system, students can pick which public or private school they want, the schools choose from the applicants, Each school gets the same dollar amount per student in a district. Schools that don't teach don't get students to apply and they close down, private or public. Schools that excel get more applicants and can add more classrooms and can pay better salaries to their teachers and will attract the best teachers.

So let me translate further: COMPETITION. Until we get real competition for education, schooling will continue to get worse independent of how much money you throw at it. The only way I know of to have real competition is the voucher system.

 

[tmttactical]

@TexasFreedom

I concur 1,000 percent. They want higher pay, prove they are worth it. Voucher works for me.