Healthcare

[KateMTx]

This is a public school. Not private.

I am aware of that. I am suggesting that the effect is the same, regardless of whether it is a public or private school, if the parents and students are directly invested in their education. In your example, while they may not have paid large amounts of money like they would have to sent their children to private school, the parents did a lot of work to make the school a good place for their children to learn. They were invested in their children's success, and the results showed.

 

[Robinjopo1]

I am aware of that. I am suggesting that the effect is the same, regardless of whether it is a public or private school, if the parents and students are directly invested in their education. In your example, while they may not have paid large amounts of money like they would have to sent their children to private school, the parents did a lot of work to make the school a good place for their children to learn. They were invested in their children's success, and the results showed.

I agree. It all starts in the home.

 

[tmttactical]

My 2 cents. In my past life I contracted with the Stockton California school district to install and setup a C.M.M.S. (Computerized Maintenance Management System) for the maintenance department. I had to turn down an extra contract worth $10,000, to enter their past time card into the system. Why did I turn it down, because the time cards were falsified and completely inaccurate. If I had entered this data, it would have completely skewed the database. I was also paid to gather information on their HVAC (Heating, Ventilation, & Air Condition) equipment. They did not know what they had or when the last P.M. (Preventative Maintenance) was performed. I also discovered their blueprints did not match what was actually installed. High end equipment was listed on the blueprint but cheaper foreign equipment had been installed. They finally had to drop the program because every monthly report showed they were doing a terrible job. Waste upon waste and fraud.

On the a different note, teacher salary. Why complain about low pay in a profession that typically has a low salary. It beats me why anyone would spend the time and money to get an education for a low paying career and then complain about low pay. Granted many say they love to teach, Okay I get that, but then don't complain about the pay.

Now on to parent involvement. Why do Asians typically score higher on SAT tests ad on college entrance exams? I can tell you, it is cultural, the parents do stay involved and they do require their children to study. I spent a couple of years in japan and their schools put our schools to shame. Education is very serious business there. Example: I passed the third grade in California, went to Japan, and had to repeat the third grade and it was darn difficult. Left Japan after passing the fourth grade and skipped the fifth grade and snoozed trough the sixth grade. Lower teaching standards, but same parents. My parents where content if I maintained a C average, so guess what average I maintained? This is until I started college and had to pay for it myself.

 

[TexasFreedom]

UP post is the most clear illustration you can ask for.

When the school was shown that fraud was rampant, they decided to stick their head in the sand rather than get things corrected. Any bet that the company that installed the equipment was related to someone in power at the school? The school system is no better than the mob. It would have been very easy to go to the contractor and point out the problems. And they can either replace things per spec of they can face a courtroom. No brainer.

 

[DrHenley]

We sent our kids to public school, but we did our research first and found out where the best schools were and moved into that district. We were very hands-on with our children's education - I had many conferences with teachers. Just to show how serious we were about their education, my children went to two different high schools because each had different educational needs and each had the highest SAT score in their respective high school.

Why do Asians typically score higher on SAT tests ad on college entrance exams? I can tell you, it is cultural, the parents do stay involved and they do require their children to study.

My wife is Asian
But I come from a family that has a history of educators (my grandfather was a school system superintendent) and I was actually more involved in the kids' education than my wife was.

 

[Arcticdude]

My sister is a school teacher. She loves it for the most part. High pay, great benefits, very little work and a lot of time off.
The part of teaching that she doesn't like is all the PC crap from the administrators, and the kids parents. Oh well, shes going to retire in a couple more years.

 

[TexasFreedom]

AD makes a really important point. Teaching really isn't about just the salary. High or low, it's not the dominant factor. Here's what is:
* Superb benefits/insurance
* Retirement
* 3 month summer vacation+ lots of holidays/'normal' vacation

Let's say a teacher only gets $30k starting pay. That's be $15/hr if they worked year-round. Instead it's closer to $20/hr. Not a bad start. Add $5-10k given to her retirement plan. Insurance/benefits are probably worth $1-1.5k/month, or $12-18k/year. Let's add this up. If a teacher works 1500 hrs/year, gets $30k+$5-10k+12-18k = $47-58k as a STARTING salary, that works out to $32-40 per hour pay. Benefits+retirement can double the salary 'value'.

Add to that where it's nearly impossible to fire a teacher, some teachers who've had sex with students are still teaching. And you can double that salary for experienced teachers.

Given that, I don't think teachers have that much to complain about. Sure, parents and students can suck. But if the teacher just remembers that she's getting paid over 50 cents per minute to listen to bad parents, they can sure do worse. Or nearly 1 penny per second. That's a lot of pennies.

 

[Doreena]

AD makes a really important point. Teaching really isn't about just the salary. High or low, it's not the dominant factor. Here's what is:
* Superb benefits/insurance
* Retirement
* 3 month summer vacation+ lots of holidays/'normal' vacation

Let's say a teacher only gets $30k starting pay. That's be $15/hr if they worked year-round. Instead it's closer to $20/hr. Not a bad start. Add $5-10k given to her retirement plan. Insurance/benefits are probably worth $1-1.5k/month, or $12-18k/year. Let's add this up. If a teacher works 1500 hrs/year, gets $30k+$5-10k+12-18k = $47-58k as a STARTING salary, that works out to $32-40 per hour pay. Benefits+retirement can double the salary 'value'.

Add to that where it's nearly impossible to fire a teacher, some teachers who've had sex with students are still teaching. And you can double that salary for experienced teachers.

Given that, I don't think teachers have that much to complain about. Sure, parents and students can suck. But if the teacher just remembers that she's getting paid over 50 cents per minute to listen to bad parents, they can sure do worse. Or nearly 1 penny per second. That's a lot of pennies.

You didn’t take into account the cost of the supplies the teachers have to buy, and the cost of the student loans and recertification costs....


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[TexasFreedom]

You didn’t take into account the cost of the supplies the teachers have to buy, and the cost of the student loans and recertification costs...

I definitely did not. And there is no reason to account for those. Do you account for the student loans when hiring a doctor? Or an accountant? Or the student loans for a private high school when hiring at McDonalds? Of course not.

And how many supplies the teach buys is a choice. You can call it charity. I'm sure other sources can help fund those expenses. See the link below, the average teacher spends under $500 per year nationwide and it also points out how other sources can contribute to much of that expense. Oh well, you tried to justify your viewpoint.

https://www.whio.com/news/local/sur...nd-classroom-supplies/DFffkQLZp5V6STngsGTr2H/

 

[Doreena]

I definitely did not. And there is no reason to account for those. Do you account for the student loans when hiring a doctor? Or an accountant? Or the student loans for a private high school when hiring at McDonalds? Of course not.

And how many supplies the teach buys is a choice. You can call it charity. I'm sure other sources can help fund those expenses. See the link below, the average teacher spends under $500 per year nationwide and it also points out how other sources can contribute to much of that expense. Oh well, you tried to justify your viewpoint.

https://www.whio.com/news/local/sur...nd-classroom-supplies/DFffkQLZp5V6STngsGTr2H/

Our teachers start at about 30000. According to the sire below it is 500 to a thousand dollars out of their own pocket to get basic supplies. And there was talk of making this non deductible. So you are saying that this is fine, that teachers will have to rely on donations to make sure their students have toilet paper, paper and pencils? We don’t pay teachers enough. They are shaping the future generations, they work hard, they deserve better than that. Some have taken out loans just so they can buy supplies!

https://free-2-teach.org/


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[TexasFreedom]

Doreena,

I feel like I'm talking to a wall. First, YES, I am just fine with that $30k starting salary. That is a STARTING salary. Did you ignore the value of the benefits I mentioned? What does a teacher there make after 10 years experience? A teacher can get a summer job.

Salaries vary by region. I'll bet a teacher in NYC starts at twice that amount. What are other starting salaries for easy college degree in the area? Yes, I said "easy college degree", a degree in education is one of the easier college diplomas. It doesn't compare to a law degree, a medical degree, an engineering degree, or even an accounting degree. I'd say a nursing degree is also more difficult, so an RN should make far more than a teacher (and they work far more hours). What does someone with a 'communications' degree make in your area? Or maybe a degree in Business Management (not an MBA)?

 

[Doreena]

Doreena,

I feel like I'm talking to a wall. First, YES, I am just fine with that $30k starting salary. That is a STARTING salary. Did you ignore the value of the benefits I mentioned? What does a teacher there make after 10 years experience? A teacher can get a summer job.

Salaries vary by region. I'll bet a teacher in NYC starts at twice that amount. What are other starting salaries for easy college degree in the area? Yes, I said "easy college degree", a degree in education is one of the easier college diplomas. It doesn't compare to a law degree, a medical degree, an engineering degree, or even an accounting degree. I'd say a nursing degree is also more difficult, so an RN should make far more than a teacher (and they work far more hours). What does someone with a 'communications' degree make in your area? Or maybe a degree in Business Management (not an MBA)?

I am sorry that you feel that your comments are not getting heard. They are, but I disagree with you. I am sure that salaries and benefits vary regionally, but so do the rigorousness of the training programs. I am speaking from my experience as a daughter of an educator and one who works at a university that grants degrees and certifications in education...I assure you that the program that the Ed students follow is not easy and is in many ways more difficult than degrees in the sciences and technology. They have to take classes in a wide range of subjects including science, humanities, math, healthcare, psychology and more not only to teach these subjects but to deal with the often difficult situations they find themselves in. My mother got a masters in reading disabilities so she could address the needs of children with special challenges. She had to be prepared for students with medical issues such as epilepsy.

The program at my university also includes separate tests during their curriculum making sure that they are ready to face the challenges ahead. And they have to regularly get recertified to continue teaching. The upper salaries here are in the 70k range. Do they get benefits? Yes, but no different than any other state position, except that k-12 does get a summer break. Not an easy field. I remember my mother working late nearly every night correcting papers, planning lessons, getting ready for her work.


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[tmttactical]

I am still at a loss to understand why somebody would spend all the time, effort and money to earn a degree to teach and then complain about the low pay. If you had half a brain, you would have already known this was a low paying career. As for the student debt, that was also a known factor, so again, why pick this career. The answer for many is they want to teach, so great go for it, but don't complain to the tax payers you want higher pay. If the teachers want, need higher pay, have them complain and campaign for more efficient school districts and parent involvement. If the pay stay too low, quit and find a better paying career. Out of 16 plus years of public education I can only pick out 4 teachers that were worth a darn. The rest taught by scrip and rote and were only semi useful. When I needed more income, I learned a different skill, that paid better. If the company I worked for did not pay enough, I quit and move to a higher paying company. I did not complain to the management, simply took my talents elsewhere. The teachers all have this same option. To me, the teachers want to have their cake and eat it too. They want a career they enjoy but want the tax payer subsidize their choice. I can think of many other careers I would have enjoyed, if I could get the tax payers to subsidize my choices. It is great if your career choice is something you really enjoy but the tax payer s not obligated to make that happen for you.

 

[Doreena]

I am still at a loss to understand why somebody would spend all the time, effort and money to earn a degree to teach and then complain about the low pay. If you had half a brain, you would have already known this was a low paying career. As for the student debt, that was also a known factor, so again, why pick this career. The answer for many is they want to teach, so great go for it, but don't complain to the tax payers you want higher pay. If the teachers want, need higher pay, have them complain and campaign for more efficient school districts and parent involvement. If the pay stay too low, quit and find a better paying career. Out of 16 plus years of public education I can only pick out 4 teachers that were worth a darn. The rest taught by scrip and rote and were only semi useful. When I needed more income, I learned a different skill, that paid better. If the company I worked for did not pay enough, I quit and move to a higher paying company. I did not complain to the management, simply took my talents elsewhere. The teachers all have this same option. To me, the teachers want to have their cake and eat it too. They want a career they enjoy but want the tax payer subsidize their choice. I can think of many other careers I would have enjoyed, if I could get the tax payers to subsidize my choices. It is great if your career choice is something you really enjoy but the tax payer s not obligated to make that happen for you.

I am sure that teachers and other professions that don’t get top pay realize some of what they are in for, but that is not an excuse for under paying them. Else, we get stuck with the dregs. That is the way capitalism works.


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[KateMTx]

I am still at a loss to understand why somebody would spend all the time, effort and money to earn a degree to teach and then complain about the low pay. If you had half a brain, you would have already known this was a low paying career. As for the student debt, that was also a known factor, so again, why pick this career. The answer for many is they want to teach, so great go for it, but don't complain to the tax payers you want higher pay. If the teachers want, need higher pay, have them complain and campaign for more efficient school districts and parent involvement. If the pay stay too low, quit and find a better paying career. Out of 16 plus years of public education I can only pick out 4 teachers that were worth a darn. The rest taught by scrip and rote and were only semi useful. When I needed more income, I learned a different skill, that paid better. If the company I worked for did not pay enough, I quit and move to a higher paying company. I did not complain to the management, simply took my talents elsewhere. The teachers all have this same option. To me, the teachers want to have their cake and eat it too. They want a career they enjoy but want the tax payer subsidize their choice. I can think of many other careers I would have enjoyed, if I could get the tax payers to subsidize my choices. It is great if your career choice is something you really enjoy but the tax payer s not obligated to make that happen for you.

I guess my question is, if this is your viewpoint, would you be okay if there were no teachers or were no good teachers? If the answer is yes, then, while your beliefs may be unpopular, they are coherent. If you would not be okay with this, however, then it doesn't make any sense because you basically want to rely on underpaid people to do a very necessary job, and then expect them to do a good job. I think most people agree with you that teachers could be paid more with less tax money if schools were more efficient, so there clearly are other problems at play than just "teachers want more money than they deserve." Maybe fixing some very really real problems should be what we all focus on, instead of just berating teachers for campaigning for higher pay.

 

[tmttactical]

I guess my question is, if this is your viewpoint, would you be okay if there were no teachers or were no good teachers? If the answer is yes, then, while your beliefs may be unpopular, they are coherent. If you would not be okay with this, however, then it doesn't make any sense because you basically want to rely on underpaid people to do a very necessary job, and then expect them to do a good job. I think most people agree with you that teachers could be paid more with less tax money if schools were more efficient, so there clearly are other problems at play than just "teachers want more money than they deserve." Maybe fixing some very really real problems should be what we all focus on, instead of just berating teachers for campaigning for higher pay.

Capitalist system will work. If there are not enough teachers, then the pay scale will increase, if there is enough demand. It is the waste that drives up the cost. Also in these times, there arr very effective home school methods, so I do not worry about the lack of teachers. If these schools do not become more efficient, then on-line education is going to wipe them out or reduce the need for more teachers. Just like most employment, automation and the internet will or can make many of these careers obsolete. Schools districts are already trying to get the state to ban homeschooling. If there were no teachers or good teachers, then people would just shift to home schooling programs. During the early days, when public schools were scarce, parent did home school, it can be done again and done better. When the school system becomes inefficient, they start to lose pupils. Look at the cost per student in the USA and then compare were the USA ranks in the world. That proves my point. WE are not getting what we are paying for, just that simple.

 

[tmttactical]

I am sure that teachers and other professions that don’t get top pay realize some of what they are in for, but that is not an excuse for under paying them. Else, we get stuck with the dregs. That is the way capitalism works.


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There is no need for an excuse, they picked this profession. Don't like the pay, go into another profession. What make you think we are not already stuck with the dregs? Many of these teachers don't move on to different careers because they can't qualify for anything else. Where is the test or process to eliminate the dregs? The teachers get in and it takes an act of congress to get them fired. That is not how it works in private schools. Don't perform, out they go. Between the unions and the civil service crap, the dregs are allowed to stay and fill up space. The teachers fought against performance ranking, they say all teacher are good. B.S.

 

[Doreena]

Capitalist system will work. If there are not enough teachers, then the pay scale will increase, if there is enough demand. It is the waste that drives up the cost. Also in these times, there arr very effective home school methods, so I do not worry about the lack of teachers. If these schools do not become more efficient, then on-line education is going to wipe them out or reduce the need for more teachers. Just like most employment, automation and the internet will or can make many of these careers obsolete. Schools districts are already trying to get the state to ban homeschooling. If there were no teachers or good teachers, then people would just shift to home schooling programs. During the early days, when public schools were scarce, parent did home school, it can be done again and done better. When the school system becomes inefficient, they start to lose pupils. Look at the cost per student in the USA and then compare were the USA ranks in the world. That proves my point. WE are not getting what we are paying for, just that simple.

With today’s economy making nearly every family need two incomes, homeschooling is a luxury many cannot afford. And as I said before, not everyone is qualified to homeschool. The children would have to have some sort of interim system as adjustments are made.


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[KateMTx]

Capitalist system will work. If there are not enough teachers, then the pay scale will increase, if there is enough demand. It is the waste that drives up the cost. Also in these times, there arr very effective home school methods, so I do not worry about the lack of teachers. If these schools do not become more efficient, then on-line education is going to wipe them out or reduce the need for more teachers. Just like most employment, automation and the internet will or can make many of these careers obsolete. Schools districts are already trying to get the state to ban homeschooling. If there were no teachers or good teachers, then people would just shift to home schooling programs. During the early days, when public schools were scarce, parent did home school, it can be done again and done better. When the school system becomes inefficient, they start to lose pupils. Look at the cost per student in the USA and then compare were the USA ranks in the world. That proves my point. WE are not getting what we are paying for, just that simple.

I was actually homeschooled myself, and I fully support parents who make the same choice for their children. However, many families cannot afford to live on just one income, which makes it difficult for them to homeschool their children. And while the internet is a great tool for education, just like it is great for many other things, it will never replace human interaction in raising children. So teachers will still be needed, and if we want good teachers we will have to pay them well enough that good teachers will think it is worthwhile to teach.

 

[TexasFreedom]

Doreena,

Let me go back. You said a degree in education is a difficult degree to get. Let me ask more about that.

Back when rocks were first invented, I got a degree in engineering from a prestigious university. I had many friends who either didn't or couldn't do the work and failed engineering classes. I remember the first calculus class, the professor said only 1/3rd of students would get a passing grade. And if you didn't pass that, 95% chance you're out of the engineering program. Those students who failed moved into "easier" programs to get a degree. Technician degrees, hotel management, communications, English, underwater basket weaving, there were lots of other programs that people could complete. I call those "easier degrees". That also means they paid LESS after graduation.

So you said a degree in education is "hard". Can you give me a few examples of degrees that students who couldn't complete their education studies would switch to, that was easier and that they could complete? Or, what would you call an "easy" college degree? And you can also translate that to ask, "what degrees should earn less than an educator?". I know there are some, probably many.