What is EMP proof?

[Jeff0278]

Is a safe? How about a microwave?
Most so called EMP proof bags you buy have a plastic zip lock closer, is that EMP proof? I saw a youtube video where a guy put a radio in a metal garbage can and zapped it with a 12v car battery, and walaa all still worked, cirasly a 12v battery???? Again I ask what is EMP proof? A Farday cage is metal all around, what about that plastic zip closer in those EMP proof bags, is that not and insulater rather than a conductor.
Just asking

 

[Proud Prepper]

A good EMP-proof bag has to seal tightly. EMP can enter through improperly sealed openings. If there is a pressure seal that doesn’t close properly, it’s allowing passage of EMPs. Having a double closure system is the most secure.

A good EMP protection bag should also consist of high-quality shielding layers. The military-grade ones made by Tech Protect have a shielding rating of MIL-B-81705-Rev-C. This is a standard that was verified by NASA.

The effectiveness of a faraday bag is rated by attenuation which is measured in dB. The attenuation rate of an effective EMP bag should be higher than 40 dB.

You also need puncture resistance. You don’t want an EMP bag that can get a hole easily. Also, some faraday bags are waterproof which is a great feature to have for extra protection for your devices.

A microwave is better than nothing, but not very effective. A metal garbage can is better if you can seal the lid from any small gaps with the can. Electronics inside also must be insulated from the metal can.

 

[Jeff0278]

A good EMP-proof bag has to seal tightly. EMP can enter through improperly sealed openings. If there is a pressure seal that doesn’t close properly, it’s allowing passage of EMPs. Having a double closure system is the most secure.

A good EMP protection bag should also consist of high-quality shielding layers. The military-grade ones made by Tech Protect have a shielding rating of MIL-B-81705-Rev-C. This is a standard that was verified by NASA.

The effectiveness of a faraday bag is rated by attenuation which is measured in dB. The attenuation rate of an effective EMP bag should be higher than 40 dB.

You also need puncture resistance. You don’t want an EMP bag that can get a hole easily. Also, some faraday bags are waterproof which is a great feature to have for extra protection for your devices.

A microwave is better than nothing, but not very effective. A metal garbage can is better if you can seal the lid from any small gaps with the can. Electronics inside also must be insulated from the metal can.

I agree with the trash can, metal to metal , the bags I think the plastic zip closer is the issue.

Thanks for the reply

 

[Proud Prepper]

I agree with the trash can, metal to metal , the bags I think the plastic zip closer is the issue.

Thanks for the reply

You should fold over the zipper closure a couple of times. The good quality EMP bags will make the entire bag, zipper included made of the aluminum layer and have a double zipper seal.

A mylar bag is made of polyester resin that has been coated with aluminum. They’re usually about 3.5mm thick.

A Faraday bag is made up of multiple layers and materials including polyethylene plastic, polyester, and aluminum. A Faraday bag is typically 7mm thick, which is twice as thick as a mylar bag. The polyethylene plastic serves as the main insulator inside the bag to make sure items within the bag do not touch the metal layer of the bag.

 

[MNwr786]

Just take the batteries out and disconnect any long wires.

Mylar coated in aluminum is not a conductor, it is designed merely to dissipate static electricity (high voltage at low current) to protect hard drives or electrical components from electrostatic discharge, not electromagnetic fields. It is a shitty resistor, thats all, not an EMP shield. And to hell with tight seals. The only thing that can get through a capacitive gap like that are extermely low frequencies, none of which the short traces in your disconnected electronics will resonate on, so that "seal it up" crap is pointless too. And this idea that things cannot touch the metal canister they are in,total nonsense pushed by nobody with an electronics background. There is nowhere for the potential to go inside the garbage can, so with no realistic path to ground, there is no current in anything to cause damage. I have no issue putting a piece of aluminum foil under my shirt and putting a 700kV stun gun to my chest to prove electricity follows the shortest path. Misconceptions and misunderstandings of electricity and magnetic fields has people living in fear.

Got a metal desk drawer? Good enough! Don't complicate it.

 

[Proud Prepper]

I agree as I stated previously a mylar bag is not EMP proof.

simplifying it is not accurate.

E1 – The time duration of this phase is about 1 – 5 NANOseconds. This part is when the bomb goes off, the gamma radiation that is in the bomb actually cascades down like a blanket to the earth. Whiles it’s cascading down it knocks electrons out of the air and they are charged with energy from the bomb. Once that energy reaches electronics, whether they be plugged in, turned off, in pants pockets, on tables, in the air, or wherever, the microchips get short circuited and ruined. This is extremely damaging because microchips must be replaced, they cannot be repaired.

E2 – This happens directly after the E1 phase. This lasts anywhere from 1 microsecond to 1 second in length. This is the initial energy that surges through the national power grid. The dangerous part of this is that it has the ability to arc, or jump, from one contact to another. As an example, if there is a blender on a counter top that is about 4 inches away from the outlet, but it is not plugged into the outlet, the energy could still hit the blender. Research has shown that the energy can jump about 6 inches. The wiring in a house is connected to the power grid. The energy comes through the grid, into the house, to the outlet, jumps from the outlet to the blender, shorting it out.

E3 – This is the last big pulse from the EMP blast. This lasts much longer than the other two phases, about 10 seconds to a few minutes. This acts just like a Geomagnetic Storm or Solar Flare. The energy from this is dispersed through the entire national grid. One of the biggest dangers of this is the EMP attack could happen as an example on the east coast and only the east coast would be affected by the E1. The E2 and E3 phase would travel through the national grid, power lines, telephone lines, rail road tracks and other long metal conductors all the way to the west coast and destroy the grid there too.

So anything that has a microchip and is not protected from EMP E1 is vulnerable even if it's not grounded.
Any electronic or electrical device is vulnerable to an E1, E2, E3 if plugged into grid. Any electrical device is vulnerable to an E2 even if not plugged in, if near other equipment plugged into the grid by it arcing up to 6 feet away.

 

[Proud Prepper]

Just take the batteries out and disconnect any long wires.

Mylar coated in aluminum is not a conductor, it is designed merely to dissipate static electricity (high voltage at low current) to protect hard drives or electrical components from electrostatic discharge, not electromagnetic fields. It is a shitty resistor, thats all, not an EMP shield. And to hell with tight seals. The only thing that can get through a capacitive gap like that are extermely low frequencies, none of which the short traces in your disconnected electronics will resonate on, so that "seal it up" crap is pointless too. And this idea that things cannot touch the metal canister they are in,total nonsense pushed by nobody with an electronics background. There is nowhere for the potential to go inside the garbage can, so with no realistic path to ground, there is no current in anything to cause damage. I have no issue putting a piece of aluminum foil under my shirt and putting a 700kV stun gun to my chest to prove electricity follows the shortest path. Misconceptions and misunderstandings of electricity and magnetic fields has people living in fear.

Got a metal desk drawer? Good enough! Don't complicate it.

Not accurate in relation to an EMP, especially an E1 and E2. Your speaking of electricity and electromagnetic fields. We are discussing electro magnetic pulses.

 

[MNwr786]

Not accurate in relation to an EMP, especially an E1 and E2. Your speaking of electricity and electromagnetic fields. We are discussing electro magnetic pulses.

What do electromagnetic pulses do there, PP? They INDUCE VOLTAGES in conductors. It is those voltages that can destroy the insulated gate fet components in your electronics. It only takes about 10 to 12v to destroy low-power CMOS devices. Having those devices powered leads to other non-fet devices being destroyed as the destroyed ones feed power to other circuit components unpredictably. You are talking to someone who used to use high voltage capacitor banks and heavy coils of copper tubing with nanosecond spark-gap switching to pointlessly destroymost of the electronics I didn't care about as a kid, even deformed metal - just to see if I could.

 

[MNwr786]

If I can deform metal with an electromagnetic pulse and have a calculator (powered off) that survived mere feet away, the strength of a magnetic pulse needed to destoy stuff in my metal desk will need to be quite impressive! There still exists inverse square laws and physics, regardless of the scary names they give to the different EMP compnents. The only known test they did, did nothing to devices that were powered off and disconnected. Only active equipment took a hit, and only some of it.

 

[MNwr786]

How do they have EMP-proof planes when they have windows, when they are not grounded, when they are flying much closer to the source of the disruption? Smart people that read more than 3 pages before calling themselves experts knew they didn't need to fly bombs in grounded garbage cans. Edit: it ain't fly by cables and hydraulics with motors running dual magnetos anymore.

 

[MNwr786]

The rise time of the E1 pulse (the scary one) is about 5ns. My can crusher emp was about the same speed. And it did kill a bunch of toys, but only those I wanted it to. I don't argue that an EMP can destroy stuff, but there are no studies about the actual prevention of such damage using the techniques discussed on this site. I gotta go with my own experience in the matter. I'm sorry, PP, I didnt mean to be a dick about it.

 

[MNwr786]

And with all the talk about mylar aluminum bags, how come none of the experts mentioned the fact that aluminum is not ferromagnetic? It does not block nor redirect electromagnetic fields at all. For aluminum to do that, the ONLY way it can, is if it has enough thickness for the eddy currents to set up an opposing field. An aluminum foil bag cannot do that. Period.

 

[Proud Prepper]

What do electromagnetic pulses do there, PP? They INDUCE VOLTAGES in conductors. It is those voltages that can destroy the insulated gate fet components in your electronics. It only takes about 10 to 12v to destroy low-power CMOS devices. Having those devices powered leads to other non-fet devices being destroyed as the destroyed ones feed power to other circuit components unpredictably. You are talking to someone who used to use high voltage capacitor banks and heavy coils of copper tubing with nanosecond spark-gap switching to pointlessly destroymost of the electronics I didn't care about as a kid, even deformed metal - just to see if I could.

And with all the talk about mylar aluminum bags, how come none of the experts mentioned the fact that aluminum is not ferromagnetic? It does not block nor redirect electromagnetic fields at all. For aluminum to do that, the ONLY way it can, is if it has enough thickness for the eddy currents to set up an opposing field. An aluminum foil bag cannot do that. Period.

What do electromagnetic pulses do there, PP? They INDUCE VOLTAGES in conductors. It is those voltages that can destroy the insulated gate fet components in your electronics. It only takes about 10 to 12v to destroy low-power CMOS devices. Having those devices powered leads to other non-fet devices being destroyed as the destroyed ones feed power to other circuit components unpredictably. You are talking to someone who used to use high voltage capacitor banks and heavy coils of copper tubing with nanosecond spark-gap switching to pointlessly destroymost of the electronics I didn't care about as a kid, even deformed metal - just to see if I could.

I should have said not completely accurate. I'm going with the most cautious recommendations. There's way to many variables. If you deflect enough of the charged electrons descending on your unplugged small electronics with no cords attached, your probably ok.

 

[Proud Prepper]

And with all the talk about mylar aluminum bags, how come none of the experts mentioned the fact that aluminum is not ferromagnetic? It does not block nor redirect electromagnetic fields at all. For aluminum to do that, the ONLY way it can, is if it has enough thickness for the eddy currents to set up an opposing field. An aluminum foil bag cannot do that. Period.

Who mentioned using them for emp protection? I said just the opposite.

Yes mylar bags are not thick enough. They should be at least 7mm and nesting inside two or more bags. You don't have to completely block the emp charged electrons, just deflect enough.

No a standard aluminum foil or mylar bag won't work for emp protection.

 

[MNwr786]

Yes mylar bags are not thick enough. They should be at least 7mm and nesting inside two or more bags. You don't have to completely block the emp charged electrons, just deflect enough.

No a standard aluminum foil or mylar bag won't work for emp protection.

I am not sure its the electrons you need to deflect. The bomb releases gamma rays which rip electrons from gas molecules and hurl them straight down at about 93-94% the speed of light. But when they hit the magnetic field of the earth, they are forced to change direction perpendicular to the field lines. The electrons themselves will spin around those lines with a radius of about 270 feet (for most of the US) depending on the magnetic field strength at that location. The electrons themselves would never make it to the ground, even if some did evade the effects of the magnetic field, too much air. Thats why cathode ray tubes need a vacuum to operate. Its the resulting electromagnetic field from their spin they get when hitting the magnetosphere that reaches us on earth., thats what needs to be deflected.

 

[Proud Prepper]

How do they have EMP-proof planes when they have windows, when they are not grounded, when they are flying much closer to the source of the disruption? Smart people that read more than 3 pages before calling themselves experts knew they didn't need to fly bombs in grounded garbage cans. Edit: it ain't fly by cables and hydraulics with motors running dual magnetos anymore.

They use special transient protectors that disapate excess voltage from there hardened equipment and shielded wiring. Are you implying I've only read 3 pages on the subject? Lol I'm not an expert, going by my definition, I've only consulted with a few of them on the subject of EMP. I do use data that's accurate from many sources and put it in plain language to share with others.

 

[MNwr786]

Are you implying I've only read 3 pages on the subject?

No, but being it was the only logical paper on the subject that ended up on this forum, I assumed that. I am sorry.

I was going to mention transient supressors, but I didn't want to hear how a baofeng doesn't have them, lol Was a bad argument on my part.

If you want to actually test the usefulmess of an EMP shield, go small scale and kill a few TI calculators. A 4" planar coil of 14ga solid copper house wire consisting of 4 turns and a cheap ebay stun gun is all you need. Your effective range will be the same as the coil diameter. See what it takes to save the calculator from total destruction.

Edit: don't touch the leads to the coil, let the arc jump to it from as far away as possible. Thats important as it ensures the capacitor is charged when it discharges through the coil.

 

[Proud Prepper]

I am not sure its the electrons you need to deflect. The bomb releases gamma rays which rip electrons from gas molecules and hurl them straight down at about 93-94% the speed of light. But when they hit the magnetic field of the earth, they are forced to change direction perpendicular to the field lines. The electrons themselves will spin around those lines with a radius of about 270 feet (for most of the US) depending on the magnetic field strength at that location. The electrons themselves would never make it to the ground, even if some did evade the effects of the magnetic field, too much air. Thats why cathode ray tubes need a vacuum to operate. Its the resulting electromagnetic field from their spin they get when hitting the magnetosphere that reaches us on earth., thats what needs to be deflected.

Isn't the emp is made up of displaced electrons charged with energy from the gamma radiation. I was just trying to keep it simple to understand.

 

[Proud Prepper]

I use EMP shields on my house, generator and solar system.

 

[MNwr786]

Isn't the emp is made up of displaced electrons charged with energy from the gamma radiation. I was just trying to keep it simple to understand.

The gamma radiation strips electrons from what little atmospheric gasses are up there. Electrons can't fly through the air down here on earth, its too dense. Only up there where the air is thin can that happen.

Consider the inner-workings of a microwave oven magnetron. Youtube had good videos on how they make RF. It is a cavity that is designed to spin electrons around a magnetic field. Upstairs, the same thing happens when the electrons encounter the earths magnetic field. The EMP effects we see down here in the depths of our atmospheric ocean are electromagnetic, not charged electrons.