short term power outages..

[Silent Earth]

Found this
Fuel News Long Term Storage of Diesel STORAGE LIFE Under normal storage conditions diesel fuel can be expected to stay in a useable condition for: • 12 months or longer at an ambient of 20ºC. • 6-12 months at an ambient temperature higher than 30ºC. As diesel gets older a fine sediment and gum forms in the diesel brought about by the reaction of diesel components with oxygen from the air. The fine sediment and gum will block fuel filters, leading to fuel starvation and the engine stopping. Frequent filter changes are then required to keep the engine going. The gums and sediments do not burn in the engine very well and can lead to carbon and soot deposits on injectors and other combustion surfaces. The expected life of a diesel fuel is indicated by the oxidation stability test ASTM D2274. The test measures how much gum and sediment will be deposited after keeping the fuel at 95°C in the presence of oxygen for 16 hours. It roughly corresponds to one year storage at 25°C. A result of less than 20mg/L of sediment and gum after the test is considered acceptable for normal diesel. ACCELERATED AGEING The ageing process can be accelerated by the following conditions:- • Contact with zinc, copper or metal alloys containing them. These metals will quickly react with diesel fuel to form unstable compounds. • The presence of water. Water allows the growth of fungus and bacteria, these produce natural by-products such as organic acids which make the fuel unstable. • Exposure to high temperatures. • Exposure to dust and dirt which contain trace elements that can destabilise the fuel, such as copper and zinc. • Fuel composition. Some components in diesel fuel naturally age quickly. PROLONGING THE STORAGE LIFE Prolonging the storage life is achieved by removing or controlling the conditions described in the previous section. Important measures to take are as follows: Document: ADF1403.doc Page 1 of 3 Issued: February 10, 2005 Supercedes: February 7, 2002 BP Australia Limited A.C.N. 004 085 616 Document: ADF1403.doc Page 2 of 3 Issued: February 10, 2005 Supercedes: February 7, 2002 BP Australia Limited A.C.N. 004 085 616 • Ensure that the fuel is not in contact with any surfaces containing zinc or copper or compounds containing those metals (eg. brass). If those metals are present then a metal deactivator additive may help. • Establish a regular fuel maintenance program to ensure that water and dirt is removed from storage tanks. This will also remove any chance for fungus to grow. • Water should be drained from the storage tanks weekly. The frequency can be extended if the tank shows no tendency to collect water but should be done at least monthly. • Tanks should be kept full to reduce the space for water to condense, maintaining tanks half full increases the water build up and promotes corrosion in the top half of the tank. Most water will come from condensation as the tank breathes, the rate at which water collects will depend on local climate and will be higher in hot humid coastal areas. • Tanks should have a well defined low point where water will collect and can be drained. For example, cone down bottoms. • Establish a system for filtering the contents of the main storage tank through a recirculating filter system. This can be made automatic and will reduce the potential for problems by removing sediment and gums. The filters should be checked and changed at regular intervals. When the filter change interval reaches a certain frequency then the fuel should be changed over. • Tanks should be emptied and cleaned at least once every 10 years, or more frequently if there is a major contamination. • Ensure that the fuel supplied conforms to a recognised specification, in Australia that would be AS3570, and ensure the fuel matches the winter cloud point for the area to avoid filter blocking by wax drop out in cold weather. . • Always purchase fuel to replenish stocks in the winter season April - August. This will ensure that the fuel will not cause wax problems whatever season it is used. • Obtain assurances from the supplier that all components are fully refined to promote stability. • Establish a monitoring program whereby samples are taken at regular intervals to monitor the condition of the fuel. The samples can be examined at the site visually for evidence of haziness, sediment, darkening or sent to a laboratory for testing. • Regularly turn the fuel over. If possible, plan the fuel usage so that it will all be used within 1-5 years and replaced with fresh fuel. ADDITIVES TO IMPROVE STORAGE LIFE The following additives can improve fuel storage life: • Metal deactivators. These work by stopping copper, zinc and other reactive metals from reacting with the fuel. • Fungicides/Biocides. These work by stopping fungus and bacteria from growing in the fuel and so prolong the life of the fuel. They are only effective on fungus and bacteria and will not stop other oxidation reactions from taking place. They are normally active at the water fuel interface where the fungus and bacteria grow. If fungus is present then a kill dose is required. Otherwise a maintenance dose is used to stop fungus growing. The disadvantages of biocides are: • handling and mixing is hazardous because they are poisons. • for a kill dose, killing the fungus can lead to a build up of dead matter which will block filters and also cause the fuel to oxidise. • ideally, the fungus should be killed and then the tank emptied and drained out. • maintenance doses are effective but no more so than regular water draining. • disposal of water bottoms requires special handling with due regard to the environment. • Anti-Oxidants. These work by stopping the oxidation processes from taking place. They prevent the fuel oxidising and reduce the formation of sediment and gum. • Fuel Stability Foam. Fuel Kleenik is a stability foam which is suspended in the diesel fuel in the tank. It has been developed and tested by Department of Defence and is claimed to keep the fuel stable for up to 10 years. The disadvantages are: • it does not work where fungus and water are present which is why it is suspended in the fuel. • its size is 2100mm x 200mm x 200mm so it has to be dropped in through a hatch. After 15 years it has to be disposed of to landfill. Fuel Kleenik is available from a company called FuelTreat ph 1800 034 442. In underground storage low sulphur diesel fuel can be expected to last at least 5 years provided steps are taken to keep water and fungus out and potentially up to 10 years or more with regular inspection. For further information, please call the BP Lubricants and Fuel Technical Helpline 1300 139 700 local call or visit www.bp.com.au/fuelnews Document: ADF1403.doc Page 3 of 3 Issued: February 10, 2005 Supercedes: February 7, 2002 BP Australia Limited A.C.N. 004 085 616

 

[Arcticdude]

I'm no chemist but I dont understand why it should go off if stored in small sealed containers like jerry cans, if it was open to the air in a vented container then yes the volatiles would evaporate, and algae would form, but in a sealed container it should not degrade????? Anyone got any answers?

With government mandated ultra low sulpher diesel, the fuel actually starts degrading after just a few months. This is a result of removing the sulpher. The sulpher acted as a natural biocide and fungus blocker.
You can add fuel/water seperators, treatment and condiditoner to your storage tanks to prolong the life of diesel considerbly.

 

[Gazrok]

@Gazrok, can you add a header tank (on a hill or stand) that gravity feeds to the house, it gets topped up when required and the sun/power is available, but of course doesn't need any power to operate to dispense water.

Not so sure it would be cost effective, or move water all over the ranch. Conversely, even if more, the solar pump would be more convenient. (and we could always schedule water use).

We just put up a 22' pool now too, so there's a LOT of water there, hehe.... Man, does it take FOREVER to fill a big pool like that from a hose.

 

[Rob Painless]

The other bit he mention was LOAD if your device uses 1600 watts ( I'm not good with electrical stuff) then you need a 2000 watt because of the START LOAD which is higher than the RUNNING LOAD.

That is very correct. Starting loads for motors (or anything that has a motor in it) can be anywhere from 1.5 to over 3 times it's running load especially for the first 2 or 3 seconds after it starts. Case in point....Last fall I installed motors, wiring and controls for a grain stacker for one of my customers. The largest motor was 30 hp. with an additional 3 motors (10 hp, & two 5 hp motors) for a total load of 50 hp. Due to it's remote location, the machine was to be powered by a portable generator. The total running wattage of all motors added up to apx. 31,200 watts, with a maximum likely load of 25,000 (25K) watts. we decided to 'play it safe' and get a 45,000 (45K) watt generator, ya know, just in case they dumped too much grain at one time & overloaded the belts. The 30 horse motor (apx. 20K watts run load) would start first, by itself, so that we wouldn't overload the generator..... But it wouldn't start .....with a 45K generator.....over TWICE the needed run size. The starting contactor chattered & the motor jumped, hickeyed and groaned. I first thought I had hooked it up wrong. But no. If I held the contactor in by hand it would start...barely. The generator was just a bit too small. We wound up using a 65K generator, and it worked fine, although we probably could have gone with a 50K or 55K.
So, yeah. Count on needing more than you think you might. To figure your wattage load , multiply the voltage, of what you're wanting to run, by the amp rating listed on it. ie.... PIE...P (power, in watts) = I (amps) X E (volts ).....P=IxE.

 

[Brent S]

That is very correct. Starting loads for motors (or anything that has a motor in it) can be anywhere from 1.5 to over 3 times it's running load especially for the first 2 or 3 seconds after it starts. Case in point....Last fall I installed motors, wiring and controls for a grain stacker for one of my customers. The largest motor was 30 hp. with an additional 3 motors (10 hp, & two 5 hp motors) for a total load of 50 hp. Due to it's remote location, the machine was to be powered by a portable generator. The total running wattage of all motors added up to apx. 31,200 watts, with a maximum likely load of 25,000 (25K) watts. we decided to 'play it safe' and get a 45,000 (45K) watt generator, ya know, just in case they dumped too much grain at one time & overloaded the belts. The 30 horse motor (apx. 20K watts run load) would start first, by itself, so that we wouldn't overload the generator..... But it wouldn't start .....with a 45K generator.....over TWICE the needed run size. The starting contactor chattered & the motor jumped, hickeyed and groaned. I first thought I had hooked it up wrong. But no. If I held the contactor in by hand it would start...barely. The generator was just a bit too small. We wound up using a 65K generator, and it worked fine, although we probably could have gone with a 50K or 55K.
So, yeah. Count on needing more than you think you might. To figure your wattage load , multiply the voltage, of what you're wanting to run, by the amp rating listed on it. ie.... PIE...P (power, in watts) = I (amps) X E (volts ).....P=IxE.

I always figured 25% more than run load and have been fine, however, I never tried running any large motors. Even my fridge pulls a lot more at startup, but nothing like double. Good info to consider.
One thing I tell people is you don't need a 15 or 20kw generator to run your house. I am using a 10kw, and it runs everything, just not all at once. If you run the a/c, don't use the stove before turning it off. Same for the hot water tank. I turn off the 'big three' mentioned, and then just flip on their breaker as needed. That way you're safe from overloading your genny. I also like the smaller unit as it burns less fuel per hour. Another tip, use the genny sparingly. I can run it for 1/2 hr spurts at a time, three to four times a day, and keep the freezer and fridge cold. With sparse use you can stretch your fuel use a lot longer.

 

[Gazrok]

Excellent tip. I was actually discussing it with the wife the other day, about run hours, and how you can simply cycle things, and plan them out. Came up because of course, I'm putting the pool pump on a timer, so it only runs for about 3 hours or so a day.

 

[Maverick]

Always take into account the environmental factor, cold and heat will play a factor thus always air on the side of caution, I count my motors/equipment starting watts as running watts plus adding 35% to to the required watts needed. I have seen people changing the exhaust to reduce the noise level or not properly maintaining the generators and they wonder why they have problems. Any modification or lack of maintenance will affect output by either lowering RPMs or raising the RPMs of the generator causing the powers frequency to fall or rise beyond the required 60hz (north America) and or AC power output so be aware, the only generator not really affected by RPMs are the inverter generators but anything above 4k watts are very very costly. Also, if one is going to connect the generator to the house panel be aware of whether the generator is bonded or floated, if it's bonded there are extra steps that need to be done.

 

[Gazrok]

If we ever do a genny to the house power, we'll be getting a pro to do it. Just not worth it to try it myself. I do some basic electrical, but I know my limits.

Run power out somewhere, install a ceiling fan or light fixture, install other outlets, no problem...but beyond that, and time for the electricians.

I'd love to eventually get a propane generator hooked up to the house, but so far, just no way to justify that expense over other items on the list.

 

[Brent S]

If we ever do a genny to the house power, we'll be getting a pro to do it. Just not worth it to try it myself. I do some basic electrical, but I know my limits.

Run power out somewhere, install a ceiling fan or light fixture, install other outlets, no problem...but beyond that, and time for the electricians.

I'd love to eventually get a propane generator hooked up to the house, but so far, just no way to justify that expense over other items on the list.

With all the hurricanes in fla it's fairly easy to justify a genny in my mind. I definately understand putting food on the table first, but think it's worth saving for. As far as hooking on up, as an owner of an electrical company, I'm supposed to tell you that you really need a professional and to spend more money. In reality, with some research online and help from friends knowledge, it's not too difficult. Yes, electricity can hurt you or your equipment without the proper cautions, but it ain't rocket science.

 

[Silent Earth]

If we ever do a genny to the house power, we'll be getting a pro to do it. Just not worth it to try it myself. I do some basic electrical, but I know my limits.

Run power out somewhere, install a ceiling fan or light fixture, install other outlets, no problem...but beyond that, and time for the electricians.

I'd love to eventually get a propane generator hooked up to the house, but so far, just no way to justify that expense over other items on the list.

Guys what some preppers have chosen to do is run a completely separate low voltage system around their homes / retreats independant of the mains 110 / 220 volt systems usually based on 12VDC kit. They use low profile flat cable to run 12 volt supplies to 12 volt LED lighting, 12 volt white goods etc of the type found in RVs, Fridge, Freezer, Microwave, Kettle, TV, Radio etc and power that from an independent 12 /24 Vdc genny, its cheap, reliable, effective and does not require messing on with the mains supplies.

 

[Brent S]

Guys what some preppers have chosen to do is run a completely separate low voltage system around their homes / retreats independant of the mains 110 / 220 volt systems usually based on 12VDC kit. They use low profile flat cable to run 12 volt supplies to 12 volt LED lighting, 12 volt white goods etc of the type found in RVs, Fridge, Freezer, Microwave, Kettle, TV, Radio etc and power that from an independent 12 /24 Vdc genny, its cheap, reliable, effective and does not require messing on with the mains supplies.

I never really considered the twelve volt system. It's a great idea. Not only is it low power consumption, but is allready in tune with a car battery, and perfect for adding solar. Although anything can be done, it would be easier to install it during construction when the walls are open. You would have an infinite supply of bulbs from all the derilect care after shtf too!

 

[Silent Earth]

I never really considered the twelve volt system. It's a great idea. Not only is it low power consumption, but is allready in tune with a car battery, and perfect for adding solar. Although anything can be done, it would be easier to install it during construction when the walls are open. You would have an infinite supply of bulbs from all the derilect care after shtf too!

I would add that one neatness freak in the US with his equally neatness mad wife simply made up a "" Wireing harness" of 12 volt ribbon cable to cover their ground floor fitted with plugs, connectors etc so that if TSHTF they can simply roll out out across the ground floor than duct tape it to the walls and connect up the 12Vdc gear they have set aside for survival.

FYI 12VDC is apparently more energy effiecient over short distances than AC supplies, bt you must use switches etc DESIGNED for DC use as DC supplies can weld shut AC switches

I would also point out that some off grid preppers / homesteaders etc in upper Utah and near Pueblo NM have set up their homes to ONLY use 12VDC they reckon life will be easier AFTER TSHTF to keep things going with 12VDC.

 

[Silent Earth]

Chomp your way through this smorgasbord of 12vDC stuff
http://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/cable-sizing-selection.html

 

[Gazrok]

Guys what some preppers have chosen to do is run a completely separate low voltage system around their homes / retreats independant of the mains 110 / 220 volt systems usually based on 12VDC kit. They use low profile flat cable to run 12 volt supplies to 12 volt LED lighting, 12 volt white goods etc of the type found in RVs, Fridge, Freezer, Microwave, Kettle, TV, Radio etc and power that from an independent 12 /24 Vdc genny, its cheap, reliable, effective and does not require messing on with the mains supplies.

It's an intriguing idea...

AC is just such a need here. I mean, I suppose we could get used to it, but man...with feels like temps near 100 degrees in the summer, more than just a luxury.

That said, post SHTF, during the summer, we may just adjourn to the horse trailer. I mean, it's got a 12 volt/propane power system with AC and mini fridge. I could see us rigging that up to solar on the roof of the trailer.... No sense wasting power cooling a large house post SHTF.

Hmm....definitely intriguing. Will have to look into that.

EDIT:

Wow, for $332, can basically get a 200W setup kit. Doesn't include the batteries, but really, these already exist (typically drawing power from the truck)...

https://www.amazon.com/WindyNation-...1468874575&sr=8-9&keywords=rv+solar+panel+kit

So technically, the trailer would have 3 different power sources:
1. Diesel, by running the truck. (could include biodiesel)
2. Solar, by the kit above.
3. Propane (fridge only)

 

[jimLE]

and here i am,checking out solar powered/hand crank flashlights and radios..

https://www.google.com/search?q=sol...ved=0CHYQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=663#facrc=_&imgrc=_

 

[Brent S]

It's an intriguing idea...

AC is just such a need here. I mean, I suppose we could get used to it, but man...with feels like temps near 100 degrees in the summer, more than just a luxury.

That said, post SHTF, during the summer, we may just adjourn to the horse trailer. I mean, it's got a 12 volt/propane power system with AC and mini fridge. I could see us rigging that up to solar on the roof of the trailer.... No sense wasting power cooling a large house post SHTF.

Hmm....definitely intriguing. Will have to look into that.

EDIT:

Wow, for $332, can basically get a 200W setup kit. Doesn't include the batteries, but really, these already exist (typically drawing power from the truck)...

https://www.amazon.com/WindyNation-...1468874575&sr=8-9&keywords=rv+solar+panel+kit

So technically, the trailer would have 3 different power sources:
1. Diesel, by running the truck. (could include biodiesel)
2. Solar, by the kit above.
3. Propane (fridge only)

Remember too, you wouldn't need to add additional wiring to your house, you could use existing wiring to run DC voltage. You would just disconnect from the grid, shut off all big energy using breakers and connect the DC to the main panel. The only hard part is at a light fixture in each room you would need to install a 12 volt light.

 

[Maverick]

AC is just such a need here. I mean, I suppose we could get used to it, but man...with feels like temps near 100 degrees in the summer, more than just a luxury.

That said, post SHTF, during the summer, we may just adjourn to the horse trailer. I mean, it's got a 12 volt/propane power system with AC and mini fridge. I could see us rigging that up to solar on the roof of the trailer.... No sense wasting power cooling a large house post SHTF.

Look for low voltage air conditioners (designed for alternative power sources) LG and DC Airco makes them. My hot water are tankless (on demand gas) and a 14cf frig/freezer out in the shop that's low voltage and gas (the frig is ac/dc/gas) the frig/freezer goes through about 1lb of propane a day, the dc is switchable between 12~24v, right now it's on ac (never connected it to dc yet)

I have the infrastructure going low voltage and solar, I'm just not sure if I want to invest that kind of money to go all the way given the type of climate we have here and the affects cold weather has on low voltage equipment.

 

[Silent Earth]

Try RV outfitters for AC, Fridges, Cookers, Freezers, Washers, TVs etc often RVs fail inspection for physical structural failures, which means the 12VDC stuff is often available for salvage.

 

[Silent Earth]

Remember too, you wouldn't need to add additional wiring to your house, you could use existing wiring to run DC voltage. You would just disconnect from the grid, shut off all big energy using breakers and connect the DC to the main panel. The only hard part is at a light fixture in each room you would need to install a 12 volt light.

CAUTION MON AMI, very often DC supply can weld AC Switchs like light switches shut.

Have a look at this chaps, its in the US of A

 

[Brent S]

I also thought about putting an inverter in before connecting to your existing panel box. It wouldn't take much to run lights and a tv/computer. Every time you convert electricity, it looses a little, but for low consumption things it wouldn't matter. Couple this with a DC fridge and you could have a fairly simple set up without major costs. Still needing the batteries and charging system though.