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I made a youtube video this morning that exlains this a bit.

gamma radiation comes in at different tangents. When the energy passes through dirt it is passing through atoms and molecules. It dissipates energy as it travels it also has the chance of hitting reverse feilds, or core of atoms which can deflect it. The reason why lead is effective is because it is very dense so it makes it more difficult to travel through it. The density also increases the chance of making contact with those counter fields and cores.
Its a bit like going through one line of scrimmage or one million.




another option is putting a gamma ray reflector at some stage?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-ray_optics



for densities

Air1.2
Wood700
Water (fresh)1,000
Water (salt)1,030
Plastics1,175
Aluminium2,700
Iron7,870
Copper8,940
Lead11,340
Gold19,320
Platinum21,450
Iridium22,420
Osmium22,570



another consideration is use of gases to create lift as opposed to adding weight
These substances can sheild but sheild far to little unless you are very far underground to use them as a sheilding medium. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lighter_than_air

at smaller depths it would be mostly negligible.

air being 1.2 at sea level, you would still be better protected using methane than air.


Insulating with plastics seems to be a better solution than air for sure.. since plastics offer more protection than wood. Aluminum might be another option since it offers nearly twice as much protection than plastic and 3 times as much as wood.


the difference between plastic sheets and soil is that sheets may be able to be grounded into the surounding eart easier or even draped from the subsurface to the surface to allow for angular runnoff.
plastics offer almost no density advantage over soil

loose soil is about 1200 vs plastics 1170 while packed soil is 1600 somewhat less than aluminum. 2700 The advantage of aluminum, steel or copper layers is that they can be used to provide a structural sheet that extends into the earth wall. of course these materials may be expensive.

:) got some old cars :)

http://www.friedmanarchives.com/Non-Gallery-Images-1/images/Junkyard 8x12 300 dpi.jpg

of course the classic is the school bus.. designed to hold oodles of weight. http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/cheap-shelters/message/3556

so arches grounded to the "hard points" on the bus or container should provide more support than simply mounting all the weight on the weak points.


example
http://www.chinabuses.org/uploadfile/news/uploadfile/201112/20111205084324468.jpg


here is a stripped bus

http://www.oldclassiccar.co.uk/dodge_rebuild/part3.htm


here is construction of an rv




eg. you might be able to use some sloped flat racks above your container to bear some of the weight




or use multiple containers stacked ontop of one another with protective materials in the upper layers, but they being stacked to the structural hardpoints on the container.

which in turn can be used for structural supports, holding tanks, supply storage etc..


example having cross sections that are burried into the earth as opposed to completely being supported by one another.



CHECK OUT the map 2:30 ON THIS ONE.. and this is only one business


dod seems to be building a lot of these underground bunkers.


every us state capital.... some holding up to 300 people :) not exactly dumbs but it is just this guy...
 
Kind of within topic.
Should there be a situation that forces us to take shelter from fallout what would you wear of you would have to leave your shelter within hours or within a day or two. Rain coat?
 
First off, it depends, if we are talking about a nuclear blast, it depends on various factors. Where the weapons or meltdown hit, why they hit or meltdown, what is ongoing as a result. Stay tuned to the radio but know that radio signals can be hijacked and overtaken, having a network of trusted informants, you have HF contact ability, the phone network should it exist, the internet should it be available, AMSAT, or pony express and whatnot.

You shouldn't leave your shelter unless you need to or want to. If you are near a blast you may have fallout. If you are away from a blast fallout may take time to reach you that is radiation from say Asia or other parts of North America that will travel with wind currents, and water flows.

It is pretty crazy to answer your question though, there are NBC suits available, I just picked one up for about $25 it is a MKIV, but they are old, some russian systems are sold for less (than non russian systems) , and lots of army surplus places in the states sell the stuff cheap, but often don't export it out of the US... due to ITAR or just keeping the supplies local.

None the less you want to wear layers so you can remove them if contaminated. Decontamination is more complex though. Usually people can survive the radiation that is left after a blast, leaving an area is prudent if you don't have adequette sheilding based upon your location. People have lifetime rad limits and shortterm rad limits. Having some way of situational awareness is ideal, even if it is through bunker networks with repeaters set up but that could make you a target in wartime.

None the less the MOPP suit is a popular american NBC system.. all I have really is the MKIV British NBC suit, and I think a MKIII suit that is probably too small for me, these suits are older than I would like, get something new if you have the money for it. Along with that I have rubber gloves, although they are a little too old for my liking too, having kevlar gloves to go over top or anything that will airseal and be non permeable is ideal. Additionally I have a chinese gas mask, although depending on the type of incident I suggest getting something that is rated for both ammonia/chlorine gas as well as particle filter and standard NATO40mm type filter. most filters do not protect against common and easy to produce chemical agents such as ammonia gas. Having a drinking straw may also help but these filters are generally for a day or two only before needing to change them I have a few filters, two newer chinese filters, and an older "new" russian one, and an older "russian one" I hope I'd never need to use the Russian ones, my russian mask is actually with someone else at the moment but the filters are interchangable. The Russian mask is more of a backup or for someone who I can "save", which is also what my second chem suit is going to once my MKIV arrives.



Additionally I have my boots but having rubber booties is also a common part, you want to totally seal yourself off to all outside air.
A roll of ducttape.. just to suppliment the Velcro around the wrists and ankles.

In the winter.. I think have a US level 5 or 6 windwet gen III jacket that could go overtop, and a Russian style black winter jacket that could fit over that, although I would probably be OK with just the suit if I keep moving. I also have snow pants gen III ecws level 7


In the summer you can take your chances.. you might want to get a few of those cold packs in the suit with you.

A raincoat is better than nothing.. you want to prevent the danger from being in contact with you.... and to reduce your exposure as much as possible. However dying of dehydration also would not be good you need to mitigate the risks. NBC protections usually is more important that hydration but hydration is not well beyond that

Bear in mind charcoal in both filters and NBC suits can degrade.. check what your military uses and start researching.

Note that some suits are only chem or biochem, while some are more NBC, for an actual nuke suit it can get expensive... wear your bunker.







a mask, suit, gloves and booties are a bit of a standard,

if you have a good NBC vehicle even better.



getting all zombie looking.. none the less the best ones will be pressurized.. they actually pushback..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=DVD6yU8KRAQ&NR=1


If you are anywhere near a nuclear blast you want to submerge yourself in salt water as soon as possible after... incorporating salt water tanks into your shelter is a good go if they will provide you a chance to bath in sea salt water.

Bear in mind that there are just a whole lot of factors on how you respond, in some cases leaving and evacuating may be the best option in others staying put may be. There are just a lot of factors to take into account. But a rain coat IS better than naked.

http://www.ibiblio.org/rcip/nuclear.html
 
@WilliamAshley.
Thanks for this very helpful information. Must admit I did not understand it all due to my lack of English skills. But just done surfing the net and there are at least two stores in Oslo where I can get at least some of the stuff you mentioned. Not very expensive so I am happy. Now I need to actually visit the stores and check. There are possible to buy some used military equipment that gives better protection than a rain coat...
Not sure if they have suits that has good radiation protection but they have lots of protection against chemicals.
Rubber gloves and rubber booties already in the house, so is ducktape. Gas mask was cheap. This will be a big improvement.
This was very helpful indeed :)
 
@The Norwegian

Look for Norwegian Forums on this topic.

It is very important if you want to live in the event of a nuclear incident.

PS I am a certified English instructor if you would like to learn more English.
 
I'll hope people understand me . Should I need some help you'll here from me :). Nice of you!!!
 
I would listen to WilliamAshley, and put dirt all around it but not on the roof, maybe a centimeter or less, just enough to turn the roof into a giant chia pet...
 
Thinking of burying a conex/seabox as a bunker. Anyone with experience with this. Is a sealant needed, covering for corrosion control. for lack of a better phrase french drains around it. Best depth, multiple entrances or usefull info.
u want a drainage system around anything you bury , and when using a steel container u always want to seal the outside! when burying it to prevent rust or corrosion tar paint is fine for this . 1 entrance and an escape hatch of somesort is always wise . make sure the doors have good sealing u never know what type of crisis may occur wether its nuclear or chemical pollution, somesort of air purification system or scrubber, make sure when burying it to have a good sand base for settling purposes,
 
I recently read an article about storm shelters and thought they made a great point.
If you install a door, make sure it opens inward, so that if debris is ontop of it, you can still open the door.
They also suggested keeping some tools in side to help remove the debris. Sledge hammers, saws, things like that.
 
I think your post is full of loop holes and you wouldn't last more than a couple of days should the worst happen.

Firstly the suits come vacuum packed and brand new they are coated with a substance that aids protection.
secondly the suits once used are thrown away.
thirdly You need inner gloves, outer gloves rubber, overboots
4th You need plenty of fullers earth for decontamination and you have to know the correct procedure hands, decon, hands.
5th the canisters for mask have a shelf life, for instance if submerged = bin job, hard use 24 hours so you need to store hundreds of them.
6th You need personal and monitoring dosimetry to pick up rad levels
7th you need a decontamination procedure cold showers as hot water opens up the pores, body monitor and all waste to be double bagged and discarded safely
8th you need an airlock of some sort with positive ventilation.

Source of information 8 years British army - NBC
8 years Navy submarine service - nuclear contamination and decontamination

Summary: in order to be fully prepped you'd need a warehouse of in date stores and a mountain of cash to pay for things like mass specs etc.
 
I think your post is full of loop holes and you wouldn't last more than a couple of days should the worst happen.

Firstly the suits come vacuum packed and brand new they are coated with a substance that aids protection.
secondly the suits once used are thrown away.
thirdly You need inner gloves, outer gloves rubber, overboots
4th You need plenty of fullers earth for decontamination and you have to know the correct procedure hands, decon, hands.
5th the canisters for mask have a shelf life, for instance if submerged = bin job, hard use 24 hours so you need to store hundreds of them.
6th You need personal and monitoring dosimetry to pick up rad levels
7th you need a decontamination procedure cold showers as hot water opens up the pores, body monitor and all waste to be double bagged and discarded safely
8th you need an airlock of some sort with positive ventilation.

Source of information 8 years British army - NBC
8 years Navy submarine service - nuclear contamination and decontamination

Summary: in order to be fully prepped you'd need a warehouse of in date stores and a mountain of cash to pay for things like mass specs etc.


Steve,

Welcome to the forum. Your are a new member, so I am going to try and help you a bit.

1) When posting a reply, you will find at the bottom of the posted thread, a like button and a reply button. If you want to respond to someone's comment to get that person to look at your comment, hit that "Reply" button, it will automatically take you to a reply window with that members account. When you finish writing your post, you can then hit the post reply, which is what I did to answer your thread. Hope this helps.

2) Not sure which post you were responding too. I assume it had to do with WilliamAshley thread. Not sure if he is an active member anymore. So not sure he will ever see your comment, unless you hit the reply button and send it to him, I am sure he forgot his post based on the date entered. reading Ashley's comments, I think he was trying to offer his thoughts on helping a fellow prepper, no harm, no foul.

3). I am sure with your extensive background in NBC operations in both the Royal Army and Royal Navy, you are quite proficients in all manners of NBC training. You just have to remember, many of the prepper's might not have the experience you have learned while on active service. You are right that with the statements you made, this is for people working in or near a contaminated environment, again where your training comes from. I offer only as a suggestion that your experience may be best suited in writing a thread or two on such things. Certainly their is duality toward NBC operations and Pandemic disease preparation. You might not be medical, but you can certainly explain entry control points, decontamination set-ups..etc. I did smile about the "fullers earth" comment....most would not know that, but they do understand diamataceous earth because most people in the states have a pool and its use as a compound agent. In fact that is how I con my wife to keep some in storage shed.

4). Your comments are sound. Agree with all your statements, except the Summary.... I think you will find our community respects everyone's decision on what they consider a priority in preps. WE are all here to learn from someone. You will find different levels of preppers on this site. Many of us recognize that the largest threat is a global financial collapse or a pandemic outbreak. Most us also belong to other prepper websites. For me, I belong to APN and one other, not that I spend much time on either one. I am there strictly for recruitment purposes. This is the only site, I truly invest time with because of the community of people we have and that Clyde provides a site that allows us to share ideas.

I agree that the items are expensive and most of the stuff you get from Army surplus stores must be considered suspect because they either have been used on ops, training or have exceeded their shelf life. Hence, why I direct most people to true companies that use commercial grade filters. For the most part I use Approvedmask as a source. I've done business with them for years. Certainly many of the items are a placebo, but lets face it, why would you be in preps if your weren't planning. I place information for them to make a sound decision, it is up to them to decide whether it is in their own planning to make that happen. Again its a choice thing.

So welcome aboard, I'd be interested in hearing from you. I did a tour from 98-01 at RAF Mildenhall, trained up at Hereford, I hear from some of my friends things are moving around on the Isles. I also did some training with the RA medical staff at your RA medical training base. Son was born at RAF Lakenheath. So send me a an email by hitting the Conversation button, if not, enjoy the site and good luck.
 
I think your post is full of loop holes and you wouldn't last more than a couple of days should the worst happen.

Firstly the suits come vacuum packed and brand new they are coated with a substance that aids protection.
secondly the suits once used are thrown away.
thirdly You need inner gloves, outer gloves rubber, overboots
4th You need plenty of fullers earth for decontamination and you have to know the correct procedure hands, decon, hands.
5th the canisters for mask have a shelf life, for instance if submerged = bin job, hard use 24 hours so you need to store hundreds of them.
6th You need personal and monitoring dosimetry to pick up rad levels
7th you need a decontamination procedure cold showers as hot water opens up the pores, body monitor and all waste to be double bagged and discarded safely
8th you need an airlock of some sort with positive ventilation.

Source of information 8 years British army - NBC
8 years Navy submarine service - nuclear contamination and decontamination

Summary: in order to be fully prepped you'd need a warehouse of in date stores and a mountain of cash to pay for things like mass specs etc.
Hi, Steveneary, welcome to the group. Man that is some great info.
You should start a thread on NBC stuff. It's nice to have someone here who can answer some of the more in depth questions on that subject.
 
Best bet is to simply be in a place that has no nearby targets or nuclear power plants. There are a few sites out there that can help in this regard (though the ones on power stations may include plants that are now inoperative, and so won't have a melt-down, so do your own verification). There are also sites that can show the range of nuclear blasts and primary targets, etc. (though of course, targets are guesses, but based on facts).

Keep in mind, after the Cold War, the world nuclear powers switched to much smaller yield weapons, so instead of a 5mt - 10mt missile being the norm, we're more at 1mt to 3mt being more common. Currently, for example, it would take about 7mt hitting our closest target, to even put us in the edge of the outer ring for radiation (and we're not within 100 miles of any nuclear plant).

Granted, radiation does travel, but it lessens exponentially both with time and distance, so that by the time it reaches us, and for the duration, should be well within acceptable limits. (you'd be surprised how much radiation we can safely take these days).
 
what I heard and read abt those sea-containers is that the 4 corners are strong enough but everything else must be reinforced
 
Our bunker is a completely water tight 30' boat, we have attached a ventilation system,which also serves
as a escape hatch,in the rear, a main hatch toward the front both with vented filters (both made of steel)
Its completly reinforced inside, with beams,fiberglass & epoxy resin and boat paint. 4 bunks, & master bedroom, alot of storage areas.
With a center lounge area. We buried it 5' underground and the upper part mounded over, we had to do this due to the water
table being so high in Fla. It looks like a above ground drainfeild.
Oh the back vent can be used as a cooking area, and is designed so that
If a intruder decided to pour something into it, which would be very difficult considering the designed of it, but if they succeeded at the bottom of the shaft is a holding area, where it has at neck comming off if it

comeing thru the transom, with a steel door we can shut, for blowback. If they ever get that close.
Both have security locks.
It has 120 volt system, with breaker box, and 6 batterys, with converters, have 120volt lights, and 8, 12 volt.
Microwave, small refrigerator, cook stove.
Working on solar powered battery charger.
We are working on a concrete building that will be accessed underground from the bunker, which will have the kitchen
facilities, and bathroom with water, have everything but the building built.
2 gens, one will be in a Faraday box.
We have a 4000 gal water tank (stainless) mounted on a trailer,400 gal holding
tank attached to the house gutter capture system. & our well.
Presently getting food to store in bunker. And have just started a garden. We are talking about the idea of
Getting a few chicks, & rabbits,
Plus we have multiple security systems in place.
Surprising we did not hit water when we dug the hole :)
You've been busy!
image.jpg
I just dug the hole into a hillside for a 10x10 storm shelter/root cellar. I have two cubes of block that will get filled with rebar and concrete. I'll have three sides and the roof underground, but the front will just be 8" of reinforced concrete. I'm still not sure about the door. I know that outward opening would be stronger, but am worried about debris trapping me if a storm hits. I'm probably going with a in swing that's got some secure bars or something. I'll set the water tank in front and build some fencing around it for camouflage, but am mostly concerned about storms more than hiding in it. I go the dirt loosened up with a backhoe, but it still needs to be spread around the low spots in the yard before I can start pouring footers.
 
Update- ceiling caved in,completly filled in with dirt and water:( were done, cant afford to do it again.
.
I'm truly sorry for all that hard work and expense lost. The best I can offer is that we learn from mistakes in life, and keep moving forwards. People don't realize how much force is put on a structure even when only buried a foot under ground. Believe me you are not the first. Most people think you can bury steel cargo containers, but not even close to being strong enough without a lot of reinforcement.
 
what I heard and read abt those sea-containers is that the 4 corners are strong enough but everything else must be reinforced
The best structure is a round tube like a courrugated steel drainpipe. The problem is that a 6' tall section is pretty costly. Any design needs to be really strong, like reinforced concrete, and work with arches and circles to distribute the weight of the dirt. Moisture is a huge concern also, who wants a damp, moldy hole in the ground.
 
Best bet is to simply be in a place that has no nearby targets or nuclear power plants. There are a few sites out there that can help in this regard (though the ones on power stations may include plants that are now inoperative, and so won't have a melt-down, so do your own verification). There are also sites that can show the range of nuclear blasts and primary targets, etc. (though of course, targets are guesses, but based on facts).

Keep in mind, after the Cold War, the world nuclear powers switched to much smaller yield weapons, so instead of a 5mt - 10mt missile being the norm, we're more at 1mt to 3mt being more common. Currently, for example, it would take about 7mt hitting our closest target, to even put us in the edge of the outer ring for radiation (and we're not within 100 miles of any nuclear plant).

Granted, radiation does travel, but it lessens exponentially both with time and distance, so that by the time it reaches us, and for the duration, should be well within acceptable limits. (you'd be surprised how much radiation we can safely take these days).
I'm about a hundred miles from atlanta, and since it's a major shipping hub for the south east, it's a target I'd rather be further away from. I'm more concerned about the nuke plant that's only about 60 miles away. My best advice about a blast or meltdown, get out of dodge. That's why we have bug out bags. I'd rather start over with nothing in a safer area than try to stay in a place I can't eat anything grown in the soil for a couple hundred years or more. I read about bikini island where we did a lot of nuke testing. You can safely live there now, but you can't eat anything grown there, not now or for a very very long time.
 
You can safely live there now, but you can't eat anything grown there, not now or for a very very long time.

Not using the native soil, but you can of course greenhouse it.....but even occasional fruit from there isn't an issue, just that if it was constant, you'd gradually increase your intake of radiation:

Eating coconuts or breadfruit from Bikini Island occasionally would be no cause for concern. But eating many over a long period of time without having taken remedial measures might result in radiation doses higher than internationally agreed safety levels.
 

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