global climate change.

[lonewolf]

I see on the news this morning and in some of todays newspapers there is a report by the international panel on climate change, we have about 12 years to bring this down to an acceptable level or we will be having SHTF for real.
I know there are many people, especially in America, who don't believe any of this global warming/ climate change stuff and think its all a con but can you take the chance if it isn't?
I don't think any of these scientists are making it up. they really believe it is happening, and so do i.

 

[DrHenley]

Bigpaul, the problem is they have lied and fudged the data and been proven to have ulterior motives so much, how can we believe anything they say?
Try listening to the ACTUAL experts like Roy Spencer: http://www.drroyspencer.com/global-warming-natural-or-manmade/

Spencer is one of the foremost experts in the world on satellite based temperature monitoring. He uses real data, not the fudged models the so-called experts use.

And as for your scientists? Well I'm a scientist too, and probably more qualified to comment on global warming than most of the armchair experts. I KNOW how these things work, and I have said pretty much the same thing Spencer said:

Contrary to popular accounts, very few scientists in the world – possibly none – have a sufficiently thorough, "big picture" understanding of the climate system to be relied upon for a prediction of the magnitude of global warming. To the public, we all might seem like experts, but the vast majority of us work on only a small portion of the problem. -Dr. Roy Spencer

But...you may be praying for some Global Warming soon...LOL

https://www.express.co.uk/news/scie...her-solar-minimum-maximum-forecast-space-news

 

[lonewolf]

this is an 11 year natural cycle, then it starts all over again, climate change goes on for ever.

 

[DrHenley]

If you had read past paragraph three...

The last time there was a prolonged solar minimum, it led to a ‘mini ice-age’, scientifically known as the Maunder minimum - which lasted for 70 years.

“If current trends continue, 2018 will end with a 10-year low in sunspot counts. This is a sign that Solar Minimum is approaching – even more rapidly than forecasters expected.”

The Maunder minimum, which saw seven decades of freezing weather, began in 1645 and lasted through to 1715, and happened when sunspots were exceedingly rare.

During this period, temperatures dropped globally by 1.3 degrees celsius leading to shorter seasons and ultimately food shortages.

 

[lonewolf]

If you had read past paragraph three...

how long ago was that? and where?

 

[Brent S]

I think it’s incredible that people still don’t believe that mankind is polluting the world so much and it won’t have any consequences long term. We have been pumping out so many pollutants into the atmosphere for a couple hundred years now, of course it’s going to change things. My take is look at the average consensus among scientists. Sure there 5% that say it’s a hoax and fake news, but I’m way more inclined to go with the 95% of reasonable thinking adults. Sorry, I don’t mean to offend anyone here, but we breathe the air, why would we want to pollute it?

 

[TexasFreedom]

Brent, if there is a thing you can do to 'save the planet', you're mistaken. China is emitting more than all of Europe and the USA combined. Combined.

 

[Mountain trapper]

I have yet to hear from a single Man caused global warming believer say what they personally are doing, or are going to do, to reduce global warming. How many are giving up their internal combustion vehicles, their standard of living, electricity and every other modern convenience? That's the problem with these foolish believers; they never offer to be the first to give anything up to "save" the planet. Put your money where your mouth is, not mine.

 

[tmttactical]

Air pollution from carbon fuels will diminish as fossil fuels become too expensive. The human race has never run out of a single fuel source. Fuel sources are replaced when they become too difficult to produce and they become too expensive. Alternate fuels abound, they are just waiting for the cost to become viable. Only the world can save the world, not the United States. We are not the piggy bank for the world or the grand savior. The rest of the world can bite the bullet too or we can all see what the future brings.

 

[Brent S]

Brent, if there is a thing you can do to 'save the planet', you're mistaken. China is emitting more than all of Europe and the USA combined. Combined.

I do somewhat agree with you. Even if the us switched to all cleaner fuels the rest of the world would need to as well. It’s a sad fact that mankind is not going to change. I sometimes wonder if trump was aware of this when he broke agreements about it.

 

[lonewolf]

I have yet to hear from a single Man caused global warming believer say what they personally are doing, or are going to do, to reduce global warming. How many are giving up their internal combustion vehicles, their standard of living, electricity and every other modern convenience? That's the problem with these foolish believers; they never offer to be the first to give anything up to "save" the planet. Put your money where your mouth is, not mine.

whatever the householder does it is small beer compared to the pollution caused by big business and industry.

 

[Brent S]

whatever the householder does it is small beer compared to the pollution caused by big business and industry.

Agreed. I think we can do some changes like LED lights in our homes and combining trips in the car, etc. but the real changes need to come from the govt though. Big business will not change when a product is making good profit. Since they support most politicians in one way or another, the govt isn’t going to make them change either. I believe that we are smart enough to make the changes needed, technology wise. I also believe we are greedy enough that nothing will change.

 

[Brent S]

Brent, if there is a thing you can do to 'save the planet', you're mistaken. China is emitting more than all of Europe and the USA combined. Combined.

That’s an old graph. I didn’t see India or Pakistan, whom are major contributors now. If anything that just reinforces how depressing this is for our kids and grandkids.

 

[lonewolf]

I don't think big business will do anything that might affect their profit levels or upset their shareholders, if we(the human race) don't get the levels down to below 1.5C above pre industrial levels-we are heading for 3C if nothing is done- we will be heading for a SHTF event of extinction levels.

 

[Mountain trapper]

Agreed. I think we can do some changes like LED lights in our homes and combining trips in the car, etc. but the real changes need to come from the govt though. Big business will not change when a product is making good profit. Since they support most politicians in one way or another, the govt isn’t going to make them change either. I believe that we are smart enough to make the changes needed, technology wise. I also believe we are greedy enough that nothing will change.

Most of the large polluting countries are China, India and Pakistan. Are you really foolish enough to believe that these countries are going to do anything to cut pollution? So many people think that government is the answer to everything; more rules, more regulations, more government, higher taxes. Are you still buying products from these high polluting countries? If so, then you are part of the problem.
The US has made great progress in reducing pollution. Yes, some of that progress is due to government regulations, but much of the reduction has come from companies moving their production overseas.
While I think the notion of "Man" caused global warming is BS, I do think that we all should do what we can to lessen our impact on the planet. I live 100% off grid, and we raise as much of our own food as possible.
One thing that I think we can all agree on is that there are too many people on this Earth. And everyone of them want a piece of the "good life". Who is going to tell them NO? How do you stop them from breeding? That is the real problem.

 

[lonewolf]

yes, the real problem is overpopulation and all these people want a western lifestyle with all that that entails.
the optimum population for the UK at one time was said to be 50 million, even at that we wouldn't be self sufficient, we are way over that at 65 million and counting.

 

[TexasFreedom]

I have yet to hear from a single Man caused global warming believer say what they personally are doing, or are going to do, to reduce global warming. How many are giving up their internal combustion vehicles, their standard of living, electricity and every other modern convenience? That's the problem with these foolish believers; they never offer to be the first to give anything up to "save" the planet. Put your money where your mouth is, not mine.

A great example is that the year Al Gore came out with "An Inconvenient Truth", his home's electric bill was nearly $30,000. Or about $2500 per month. Any hypocrisy there?

I don't think big business will do anything that might affect their profit levels or upset their shareholders, if we(the human race) don't get the levels down to below 1.5C above pre industrial levels-we are heading for 3C if nothing is done- we will be heading for a SHTF event of extinction levels.

I still content that man-made global warming/climate change is a myth. IF people really think population is such a problem, they would be advocating nuking India/Pakistan/China to kill a few billion people and stop them from destroying the world. It sounds crazy, but this is how radical some of these folks are. At least they'd be correct to say those countries are the ones making most of the problems. But will the UN ever really acknowledge where the problem is, rather than blaming America for everything?

 

[lonewolf]

I think that anyone who dosent think that mankind and all its activities contributes to global warming/climate change is very niave.
industry has been polluting the planet ever since the industrial revolution started in the mid 18th century and probably even before that.

 

[TexasFreedom]

BP, you can call me Mister Very Naïve then!

If I'm wrong, billions die from the climate. If I'm right, everything goes right along.

If you're wrong, the economy implodes and billions die from anarchy. If you are right, we still can't change the path we're on and billions still die from the climate.

It seems there is only one path that leads to success.

 

[lonewolf]

we could do something about the climate, as a species, if we wanted to, but we wont, so get ready for SHTF and global Armageddon.

 

[DrHenley]

Brent, you are conflating global warming and pollution. Those are two separate issues. The whole pretext of global warming is that CO2 is a pollutant. CO2 is a 100% natural and normal substance that has been in the atmosphere since before human beings existed. At one time there was a lot more CO2 in the atmosphere (and methane too) than there is now.

During the Cambrian period, atmospheric CO2 levels were TWICE what they are today. Somehow Earth survived...

CO2 is PLANT FOOD for crying out loud!

Regarding pollution, nobody wants to breathe polluted air or drink polluted water.

 

[user 5745]

Brent, you are conflating global warming and pollution. Those are two separate issues. The whole pretext of global warming is that CO2 is a pollutant. CO2 is a 100% natural and normal substance that has been in the atmosphere since before human beings existed. At one time there was a lot more CO2 in the atmosphere (and methane too) than there is now.

During the Cambrian period, atmospheric CO2 levels were TWICE what they are today. Somehow Earth survived...

CO2 is PLANT FOOD for crying out loud!

Regarding pollution, nobody wants to breathe polluted air or drink polluted water.

The whole pretext of global warming is not that CO2 is a pollutant in the sense that you seem to mean: no reputable scientist is claiming that a) it's unnatural, b) it's abnormal or c) it hasn't been in the atmosphere since before human beings existed. In addition, no reputable scientist is saying, 'OMG, the Earth won't survive climate change!"

CO2, methane and certain other gases trap heat in the atmosphere. The underlying science of climate change is that as the proportion of these gases in the atmosphere rises, so its capacity to store heat also rises and that this has knock-on effects on other environmental systems.

The question for humans (with a particularly human bias) isn't whether or not the Earth will survive climate change - of course it will - but, rather, whether or not the environmental conditions upon which humans depend will change so radically as a result of climate change and other factors (including pollution) as to make life challenging, difficult or even impossible. Earth will be here long after we've gone; the question is how long we'll be here enjoying any kind of quality of life.

 

[Brent S]

There is no doubt in my mind that co2 and methane are trapping heat. I believe there is enough science showing that. I am disheartened that the reality is man will not do what is needed to stop it. Like Bluejoy said though, the world will not end. It will make it much harder for mankind to live on the planet and possibly impossible one day. I do find a certain sense of peace in knowing that no matter what happens, give it a million or two years and the planet has a way of renewing and starting over. There has been 5 mass extinction periods in the worlds history. Yet each time, given enough time, whole new species and ecosystems started over. Life finds a way. There’s no reason to think it won’t happen again. I’ve often thought with all the billions of galaxies out there, how many times has life started, advanced and then perished? Probably hundreds of millions of times. Hopefully there are some places where the advances made it to get past the self destructive nature that we demonstrate as a species. As a matter of fact I am sure it has, somewhere out there.

 

[jontte]

it will remain to see if we are knee deep or above our heads deep in ****...

 

[Brent S]

it will remain to see if we are knee deep or above our heads deep in ****...

Not too worried about any of us, but am concerned for the kids and grandkids sakes.

 

[Proud Prepper]

There is no doubt in my mind that co2 and methane are trapping heat. I believe there is enough science showing that. I am disheartened that the reality is man will not do what is needed to stop it. Like Bluejoy said though, the world will not end. It will make it much harder for mankind to live on the planet and possibly impossible one day. I do find a certain sense of peace in knowing that no matter what happens, give it a million or two years and the planet has a way of renewing and starting over. There has been 5 mass extinction periods in the worlds history. Yet each time, given enough time, whole new species and ecosystems started over. Life finds a way. There’s no reason to think it won’t happen again. I’ve often thought with all the billions of galaxies out there, how many times has life started, advanced and then perished? Probably hundreds of millions of times. Hopefully there are some places where the advances made it to get past the self destructive nature that we demonstrate as a species. As a matter of fact I am sure it has, somewhere out there.

What do you think mankind can do to prevent this? A 100%carbon tax? More Al Gore movies? Everyone forced to use electric cars? Limit all new births to one per couple? Stop the use of all oil? Stop the use of all coal? Stop all use of wood burning? All of these?
Even if you did all these things and anything else you think of, it would not stop an exstinction period. You state that global climate change is real and we are causing it or not doing what is needed to stop it, yet you also claim that it has occured 5 times in the past and humans did not even exist during any of those times. Listen to how foolish that is.

 

[DrHenley]

The whole pretext of global warming is not that CO2 is a pollutant in the sense that you seem to mean

Massachusetts v. Environmental Protection Agency, 549 U.S. 497 (2007),[1] is a 5-4 U.S. Supreme Court case in which twelve states and several cities of the United States brought suit against the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) to force that federal agency to regulate carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases (GHGs) as pollutants.

The #1 greenhouse gas is water vapor. So according to this ruling, the EPA was forced to classify water as a pollutant. This is how insane this is.

 

[user 5745]

The #1 greenhouse gas is water vapor. So according to this ruling, the EPA was forced to classify water as a pollutant. This is how insane this is.

The key phrase in my response was 'in the sense that you seem to mean'. You and the paper you've linked to use different definitions of 'pollutant'.

In your original rebuttal of the definition of CO2 as a pollutant, you implied that it can't be one because it's natural, common and has been around for ages. Hence, you defined a pollutant as something unnatural, uncommon and fairly recently occuring.

'Pollutant' in legal rulings uses a different and, as one would expect, quite specific definition. There's a fairly straightforward explanation here: https://skepticalscience.com/co2-pollutant-advanced.htm

In essence, a pollutant is any substance or any form of energy that, through human action, is added to the environment 'at a rate faster than it can be dispersed, diluted, decomposed, recycled, or stored in some harmless form.' (https://www.britannica.com/science/pollution-environment)

 

[tmttactical]

@Bluejoy With that definition, if I water my lawn faster than the ground can absorb it, then the ground is being polluted by me. Right, I buy into that definition.

 

[Brent S]

What do you think mankind can do to prevent this? A 100%carbon tax? More Al Gore movies? Everyone forced to use electric cars? Limit all new births to one per couple? Stop the use of all oil? Stop the use of all coal? Stop all use of wood burning? All of these?
Even if you did all these things and anything else you think of, it would not stop an exstinction period. You state that global climate change is real and we are causing it or not doing what is needed to stop it, yet you also claim that it has occured 5 times in the past and humans did not even exist during any of those times. Listen to how foolish that is.

I think you can bury your head in the sand and ignore it all you like, but that isn’t going to fix anything.. The only thing I do agree with is limiting births to one child worldwide is a good idea. That’s a real step that could be doable. If a deer population is over crowded for an area and are eating more than the areas resources provide, what do we do? We allow hunting to thin out the population. Since hunting humans is out of the question, birth control is the best option. Coal should have been stopped long ago. I agree, no one and no country is going to stop using oil or stop producing electricity, which is why I don’t have much hope here.
Yes, there have been extinctions that weren’t caused by man. Does that make it any better if we cause one for ourselves now? That’s like saying, ‘well you’re going to die sooner or later anyways, so let’s just go ahead and get it over with now’.
I still believe science could fix the energy problem. Energy is really abundant in the universe. If the whole world put enough resources into it we could discover non polluting ways to get it. There are ways to start cleaning the air too. With enough resources I’m sure it could be scaled up enough to make a difference. The problem is back to greed though. Oil is so tied to all the economies and has most politicians being supported in some way that nothing will change. People aren’t going to make the tough choices needed.