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Proud Prepper

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Everyone living in the state of Alaska gets free money. It doesn't come from the taxpayers, it comes from the suuuuuper rich oil companies. Alaskans are cool with taking the money. Why aren't you?

Exactly, it comes from the oil companies, not from the tax payers via the government.
 

Rhian L'Arson

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That attitude among politicians is precisely why the government is in the state it's in now.

They seem to be doing alright for themselves.

A politician who is poor is a poor politician.
 
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DrHenley

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All the land owned in this country was originally taken from native tribes by fraud and genocide.
Not true.
You need to stop reading revisionist history and read the actual historical record.
Many of the land purchases by the U.S. Government were initiated by the Indians. The reason for this is that they bought on credit from British and French trading companies during a severe drought in the 1790s and ran up debts they could never repay.

Here, read it for yourself:

1805 A Treaty of Limits
Article II
For and in consideration of the foregoing cession on the part of the Chaktaw nation, and in full satisfaction for the same, the commissioners of the United States, do hereby covenant, and agree with the said nation in behalf of the United States, that the said States shall pay to the said nation fifty thousand five hundred dollars, for the following purposes, to wit: Forty eight thousand dollars to enable the Mingoes to discharge the debt due to their merchants and traders...
 

DrHenley

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They seem to be doing alright for themselves.

A politician who is poor is a poor politician.
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Rhian L'Arson

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Not true.
You need to stop reading revisionist history and read the actual historical record.

I'd like to read the actual historical record, unfortunately the Choctaw, like many Native Americans, had no system of written language so half the story is missing from the record. I'd have to guess having no written language tends to put you at a slight disadvantage when it comes to things like trading on credit and negotiating written treaties.
 

bill harrell

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I'd have to guess having no written language tends to put you at a slight disadvantage when it comes to things like trading on credit and negotiating written treaties.
I'd guess with you having no written records of anything in your past you would expect me to take your word for what happened also. Not that your word is not good or anything.
 

rainingcatzanddogs

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Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56 men​

who signed the Declaration of Independence?​

FIVE SIGNERS WERE CAPTURED BY THE BRITISH AS TRAITORS AND TORTURED BEFORE THEY DIED.​

TWELVE HAD THEIR HOMES RANSACKED AND BURNED.​

TWO LOST THEIR SONS SERVING IN THE REVOLUTIONARY ARMY, ANOTHER HAD TWO SONS CAPTURED.​

NINE OF THE 56 FOUGHT AND DIED FROM WOUNDS OR HARDSHIPS OF THE REVOLUTIONARY WAR.​

THEY SIGNED AND THEY PLEDGED THEIR LIVES, THEIR FORTUNES AND THEIR SACRED HONOR.​

Died For Us All.

WHAT KIND OF MEN WERE THEY?​

THE LAST SENTENCE OF THE DECLARATION INDICATES, THEY ANTICIPATED PAYING A SEVERE PRICE FOR THEIR FREEDOM — “… WITH A FIRM RELIANCE ON THE PROTECTION OF DIVINE PROVIDENCE, WE MUTUALLY PLEDGE TO EACH OTHER OUR LIVES, OUR FORTUNES AND OUR SACRED HONOR.”​

Twenty-four were lawyers and jurists, eleven were merchants, nine were farmers and large plantation owners, Men of means, well educated, but they signed the Declaration of Independence knowing full well that the penalty would be death if they were captured.

Among the five New Jersey signers was Abraham Clark, whose two sons were captured during the Revolutionary War. The township of Clark is named in his honor.

John Witherspoon lost his son to the war, and the library, which he donated to Princeton University, was burned.

Francis Hopkinson’s home in Bordentown was ransacked during the war.

Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and trader, saw his ships swept from the seas by the British Navy. He sold his home and properties to pay his debts, and died in rags.

Thomas McKean was so hounded by the British that he was forced to move his family almost constantly. He served in the Congress without pay, and his family was kept in hiding. His possessions were taken from him and poverty was his reward.

Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Ellery, Hall, Clymer, Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and Middleton.

At the battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson, Jr., noted that the British General Cornwallis had taken over the Nelson home for his headquarters. He quietly urged General George Washington to open fire. The home was destroyed and Nelson died bankrupt.

Francis Lewis had his home and properties destroyed. The enemy jailed his wife, and she died within a few months.

John Hart was driven from his wife’s bedside as she was dying. Their 13 children fled for their lives. His fields and his gristmill were laid to waste. For more than a year he lived in forests and caves, returning home to find his wife dead and his children vanished.

Charles Carroll was born into a wealthy Roman Catholic family in Annapolis Maryland. He began his rather remarkable formal education at the age of 8, when he was packed off to France to attend a Jesuit College at St. Omer. In 1772 he anonymously engaged the secretary of the colony of Maryland in a series of Newspaper articles protesting the right of the British government to tax the colonies without representation. Carroll was an early advocate for armed resistance with the object of separation from Gr. Britain. He served in the Continental Congress, on the Board of War, through much of the War of Independence, and simultaneously participated in the framing of a constitution for Maryland. He was elected to the Maryland Senate in 1781, and to the first Federal Congress in 1788. He returned again to the State Senate in 1790 and served there for 10 years. He retired from that post in 1800.

Charles Carroll was the last surviving member of those who signed the Declaration. He died, the last survivor of the signers of the Declaration, in 1832 at the age of 95. He was thus the only Signer to see a steam locomotive.
 

DrHenley

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I'd like to read the actual historical record, unfortunately the Choctaw, like many Native Americans, had no system of written language so half the story is missing from the record. I'd have to guess having no written language tends to put you at a slight disadvantage when it comes to things like trading on credit and negotiating written treaties.
Nice try, but no cigar.
In this case, John Pitchlynn, whose father Isaac Pitchlynn had been a Scottish trader in the Choctaw nation in the 1700s, came with his father to the Choctaw Nation as a very young child, and grew up with the Choctaws and was fluent in both English and Choctaw and was adopted by the tribe when his father died. He was assigned as the official U.S. Government interpreter for the Choctaw Nation by George Washington, and lived the rest of his life with the Choctaws. In his capacity as official interpreter, he accompanied Chief Pushmatata during all meetings between Pushmataha and the US government and kept detailed records.

Pitchlynn's son, Peter, was later the Principle Chief of the Choctaw Nation after removal to Oklahoma, which was very unusual for someone that wasn't pure blooded Choctaw. But he and his father were that well respected by the Choctaws.
 

Rhian L'Arson

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Nice try, but no cigar.

Many treaties were made under conditions of threats, bribery, and extortion and were not acknowledged as legitimate by most Native people. The federal government could and did use military force to remove Native nations.

Quibbling over particular cases doesn't change facts every schoolchild knows. The territorial expansion of the United States was accomplished by the systematic forced removal of Native Americans from their territories.
 

Proud Prepper

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Many treaties were made under conditions of threats, bribery, and extortion and were not acknowledged as legitimate by most Native people. The federal government could and did use military force to remove Native nations.

Quibbling over particular cases doesn't change facts every schoolchild knows. The territorial expansion of the United States was accomplished by the systematic forced removal of Native Americans from their territories.

And your example is?
 

rainingcatzanddogs

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One of the difficulties of "Negotiating" with the indigenous tribes (not unlike much of the Middle East today) is that you often had different leaders that you needed to negotiate. One did not speak for all. On occasion, one tribal leader might give away territory that was inhabited by a rival to weaken that rival.

As a for instance, in East Texas you had several Native tribes.

1663866422266.png


The above map shows "Best Known" tribes. In fact, there were Cherokee's living on what the map above says were "Caddo" lands; Thus you have a county called Cherokee.

Even within tribes you had sects. not unlike the blanket term "Christians" today...you have Southern Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox Catholics, Russian Orthodox Catholics...Just because the Pope might make a deal, it does not mean that all "Christians" will honor it.

My paternal grandmother was Lakota Sioux, within their particular Lakota division there were Sihasapa, or Blackfoot; Brulé (Upper and Lower); Hunkpapa; Miniconjou; Oglala; Sans Arcs; and Oohenonpa, or Two-Kettle...One leader did not necessarily speak for all and you don't think there was "politics" in the native tribes? One trabal leader might look to shaft another, for personal reasons. THEY ARE HUMAN TOO!

Killough Massacre
Fearing this growing unrest, Killough with his relatives and friends fled to Nacogdoches for refuge. On condition they would leave the area after doing so, the Cherokee leaders agreed to their safe passage if they would return simply to harvest their crops. They did so. But on October 5, 1838, a band of Cherokee who had not been party to the agreement attacked the settlement. Most of the Killough group—a total of eighteen—were killed or abducted as they worked their fields. Those who survived fled for a time to Lacy's Fort on the San Antonio Road, just west of present-day Alto, Texas.

This was part of the issue with "the white man" as well. One did not speak for all, especially in the beginning. We saw this in Texas where a deal that Sam Houston had brokered between the Cherokee and the government of Spain, was not honored by the New Texas Government.

Very little of this is taught in schools, there is a good-guy/bad-guy; black and white explanation taught that is very, very flawed.
 
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DrHenley

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Many treaties were made under conditions of threats, bribery, and extortion and were not acknowledged as legitimate by most Native people. The federal government could and did use military force to remove Native nations.

Quibbling over particular cases doesn't change facts every schoolchild knows. The territorial expansion of the United States was accomplished by the systematic forced removal of Native Americans from their territories.
I'm giving you documented facts. You are spouting generalities with nothing to back it up. Yes, I know that schoolchildren are taught revisionist history. That doesn't make it true.

You made the statement "All the land owned in this country was originally taken from native tribes by fraud and genocide."
That statement is verifiably false and I proved it.
 

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