Anyone had group of 100+ for more than 10 years?

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A little over a month and a half into our "live food" experiments, there are no results yet.
We've set success criteria and teams will have a full 6 months to prove their food source is sustainable and desirable as a food source.
Each team is working with two breeds. They must choose between those two breeds and show they're getting good yields.

The chicken team is using "Turkens" and "Plymouth Rocks." These chickens have to lay enough good-sized eggs and some will be eaten as meat. Those Turkens are the ugliest chickens I've ever seen, but I've been assured they are worth having.

The fish team is working with Carp and Tilapia. I've actually never eaten either. Their criteria include how quickly they grow, but also how good they taste.

The rabbit team has these monster big rabbits called Flemish Giants and also Palomino (having never owned a Palomino horse, I can't say if they look similar?!) Rabbits are famous for breeding quickly, so litter size and amount of weight produced in the least time will be important.

Sometime in May we'll know which food source or sources we'll keep pursuing (if any?) and which we'll abandon (if any?!)
I hope all three succeed because I would prefer all of these fresh!
 
Dave_V: There is no one right answer because each group is different and are planning for different lengths of activation.
We started with chickens and added rabbits. We have a 40 adult group and can easily expand to 60 adults (not counting crawlers.)

One day I explored how much chicken and rabbit food we needed to store the day before TSHTF for the critters. I realized we would have trouble locating that much food. Then I realized the life of the food bags was limiting (assume 3 months ).

I then explored cost & time to raise meat critters for 40 adults. It was staggering.

We immediately gave away our rabbit cages & equipment as you cannot free range rabbits. They will run off.

In doing the math don't forget to keep some warm depending on your location and any location, electrical light for the chickens in the winter to keep them laying. Don't forget the flock molts as a group and goes on strike when it does. If you free range without supplemental food (cracked corn) the chickens stop laying.

Our plan was to free range chickens when the food ran out. But then we again hit the three year life of our large flock.
One would have to spray paint a spot on laying chickens so you could identify dinner or go to leg bands to record birthdays.

But calculate how many critters your group plans to eat a month and then back into how much food inventory for all of them to be raised will be required. It is staggering knowing you only get one trip to the feed supply store and if you wait too long you will be shut out and end up with no protein.

Once a cost analysis was made on meat (protein) raising we retired the chickens and focused on canned protein and beans and rice.
Of course, this is not as romantic but is much more accurate in planning.

Our goal is getting out of the life boat alive and not as cannibals.
Some nourishment health issues are acceptable and can be managed by vitamins after several months.

Again Dave, this is not the one and only final answer. It is just things you might want to factor in.

If you need assistance with the calculations email me at [email protected] as I seldom visit this site.



39. Raising Critters For Food. Source

'Taint Worth It.

Our Prepper group has lots of chickens that can be free ranged in time of activation after the chicken food runs out. We have no roosters as they make too much noise. When a hen lays she brags but we don't have neighbors close enough to hear them. That is our plan.

We built a rabbit barn with 15 does and bucks to began producing meat. But we then discovered we could not store enough rabbit food to produce lots of rabbits that would take three months to become dinner. We could not free range them like the chickens because they would not come home at nights as the hens would. So we abandoned that project and gave away the cages.

Here was our deliberate reasoning once we came to our senses. Eggs are sentimental. So too with rabbits unless you are planning for an Adam & Eve long term event.

What we really want is protein. That is the real goal.

The cheapest way to get protein is rice and about 7 ounces (half a can) of beans within 8 hours of each other (or in one meal), each day (per adult). This allows the rice to then become protein. That is why most of the world lives on that stuff! You can buy red, kidney, black, pinto or other canned beans in any of the Dollar stores for about $0.70 per can. This is better than dry beans because anything in a can is fully cooked and requires no energy to eat it, whereas it takes at least an hour and a half to cook dry beans. You do the fuel costs.

So here is the kicker. While you are in the Dollar stores, you can purchase a one pound canned ham (Bristle brand I believe) for $3.00. That meat is cheaper than raising chickens or rabbits for meat! Plus it too is fully cooked.

But also keep in mind you don't have to have protein every day.

Therefore, for us the chickens and eggs will be for fun. But the protein for our estimated stay is next to the forks and can opener. This looked better than running out into the night half asleep and dying to protect the chicken coop. Cans are quiet.

See: Sam’s Club / Costco Type Food For Members.

See Also: Rice Insurance
 
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Dave_V: There is no one right answer because each group is different and are planning for different lengths of activation.
We started with chickens and added rabbits. We have a 40 adult group and can easily expand to 60 adults (not counting crawlers.)

One day I explored how much chicken and rabbit food we needed to store the day before TSHTF for the critters. I realized we would have trouble locating that much food. Then I realized the life of the food bags was limiting (assume 3 months ).

I then explored cost & time to raise meat critters for 40 adults. It was staggering.

We immediately gave away our rabbit cages & equipment as you cannot free range rabbits. They will run off.

In doing the math don't forget to keep some warm depending on your location and anywhere electrical light for the chickens in the winter to keep them laying. Don't forget the flock molts as a group and goes on strike when it does. If you free range without supplemental food (cracked corn) the chickens stop laying.

Our plan was to free range chickens when the food ran out. But then we again hit the three year life of our large flock.
One would have to spray paint a spot on laying chickens so you could identify dinner or go to leg bands to record birthdays.

But calculate how many critters your group plans to eat a month and then back into how much food inventory for all of them to be raised will be required. It is staggering knowing you only get one trip to the feed supply store and if you wait too long you will be shut out and end up with no protein.

Once a cost analysis was made on meat (protein) raising we retired the chickens and focused on canned protein and beans and rice.
Of course, this is not as romantic but is much more accurate in planning.

Our goal is getting out of the life boat alive and not as cannibals.
Some nourishment health issues are acceptable and can be managed by vitamins after several months.

Again Dave, this is not the one and only final answer. It is just things you might want to factor in.

If you need assistance with the calculations email me at [email protected] as I seldom visit this site.



39. Raising Critters For Food. Source

'Taint Worth It.

Our Prepper group has lots of chickens that can be free ranged in time of activation after the chicken food runs out. We have no roosters as they make too much noise. When a hen lays she brags but we don't have neighbors close enough to hear them. That is our plan.

We built a rabbit barn with 15 does and bucks to began producing meat. But we then discovered we could not store enough rabbit food to produce lots of rabbits that would take three months to become dinner. We could not free range them like the chickens because they would not come home at nights as the hens would. So we abandoned that project and gave away the cages.

Here was our deliberate reasoning once we came to our senses. Eggs are sentimental. So too with rabbits unless you are planning for an Adam & Eve long term event.

What we really want is protein. That is the real goal.

The cheapest way to get protein is rice and about 7 ounces (half a can) of beans within 8 hours of each other (or in one meal), each day. This allows the rice to then become protein. That is why most of the world lives on that stuff! You can buy red, kidney, black, pinto or other canned beans in any of the Dollar stores for about $0.70 per can. This is better than dry beans because anything in a can is fully cooked and requires no energy to eat it, whereas it takes at least an hour and a half to cook dry beans. You do the fuel costs.

So here is the kicker. While you are in the Dollar stores, you can purchase a one pound canned ham (Bristle brand I believe) for $3.00. That meat is cheaper than raising chickens or rabbits for meat! Plus it too is fully cooked.

But also keep in mind you don't have to have protein every day.

Therefore, for us the chickens and eggs will be for fun. But the protein for our estimated stay is next to the forks and can opener. This looked better than running out into the night half asleep and dying to protect the chicken coop. Cans are quiet.

See: Sam’s Club / Costco Type Food For Members.

See Also: Rice Insurance

Coming from the outlook of a non accountant.....

Some live Chickens are definitely worth it.
 
Dave_V:
Consider having members activate with their frozen meat, all oven grills and some with their freezers.

Start eating the frozen supplies before loss of power.

If fear of losing power and weather is right, dehydrate the last of the meat.
In Florida this can be done 9 months out of the year by using a black SUV and the oven racks.
Otherwise use dehydrators or improvise.

The jerked meat can last 3-4 months without refrigeration.
Then go on to dinner critters or the 40 year life fully cooked canned meat.

P.S. If you find yourself more of a vegetarian don't forget the B-12 after a month or two.
 
While stock piling food is a necessity, so is having protein sources and the ability to grow enough food for survival before ones food supplies run dry. We all have to set up a system whereby we are pretty much self sustainable. Yes, if you can secure a connection now with others (whom you Trust) to trade items you need, but don’t grow or raise, then that will work too.

Chickens are easy to free range and providing protein to them with growing sunflowers (sprouting those so you get 7x more food than just eating them)…raise your own bug protein for them. Things like mealworms or earthworms, black soldier flies and even maggots.

Rabbits do not have to be raised in cages and can indeed be “free ranged”. Rabbit tractors work as do colony setups. Having at least 2 different areas to rotate the rabbits will provide food for them. Like chickens, plant the areas you rotate them to with things they will eat.

The time to purchase those Foraging seeds is now.
 
Here is a good example of what to grow for chicken forage.

“This mix contains:

Ryegrass
Fescue
Clover
Mustard
Daikon radish
Buckwheat
Peas
Purple top turnip

“This perfect chicken forage mix will increase their intake of xanthophylls and omega three. Chicken owners are aware that healthy chickens produce bright orange yolks as this is a sign of a happy and healthy hen. By giving your chickens plenty of this forage mix, you will start seeing this change in the yolks and even a denser, harder eggshell. Orange yolks are a clear indication of a well balanced and highly nutritious diet. Recent studies show chickens that free range or forage on proper elements produce eggs with higher levels of vitamin A, D and E and much more. Hens that produce this quality of eggs is what you want to be feeding to your family.

  • Chicken Forage Crop Seed Mix for Healthy Hens & Eggs  C4 image 1
ZellajakeFarmGarden
271,844 sales|5 out of 5 stars
Chicken Forage Crop Seed Mix for Healthy Hens & Eggs - C4”
 
For chickens to become full circle protein, you need a rooster, and you need to incubate. I understand that RIGHT NOW it is cheaper to pick up that canned ham, but if you're not one that's just prepping for a month long temp problem, then you need to keep the protein coming.
 
One of the "kids" on the chicken team majored in poultry science, so I won't be telling her what to do!
It's funny, after reading Jim's post, I was thinking, darn, are we are just fooling ourselves into thinking taste and freshness are important?
I kept reading and I realize it's like he said, there's not just one answer.

We have a bounty of resources, especially electricity, but there's always a scenario where everything fails, then we have to evacuate the facility and move topside. But still, with an entire strip mall at our disposal for shelter, all our stored resources could be moved up to accommodate our needs above ground. The school is particularly defendable and with the direct tunnel to the facility's resources, we could make a pretty strong go of it.
If everything failed below, we would be REALLY glad that we had chickens, rabbits, and fish that we could move above ground! It actually might save our bacon, so that will definitely be a consideration in whether to keep or ditch each of the three.

Speaking of possible wasted resources, during our 6 month off-grid trial lockdown with a really good number of participants, it was the consensus view that our hydroponics team outdid themselves producing great vegetables, including two types of corn. Shown here is an ear from my grocery vs one of our hydroponically grown ears of corn (on the right.) Both taste great but considering the huge increase in the cost of nitrogen, the pain it is to grow (grow lights need to be angled and raised as it grows!) and the amount of space it takes up compared to other vegetables - I wonder if we might be being too emotional (and prideful) about having "real" corn when canned and frozen would do? They grow us some great stuff, but are we putting too many resources where we might better put them elsewhere?
"Food" for thought!
 

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They grow us some great stuff, but are we putting too many resources where we might better put them elsewhere?
"Food" for thought!

Excellent growing of the corn! During a real collapse we will all turn to food with high calories, less space to grow large amounts and types of food that combined together make a well “rounded” diet. Corn in my opinion is a necessity. Not sweet corn. Dent corn. The same field that helps feed the animals also gives you cornmeal, cornbread, tortillas, fried cornmeal, and cornmeal mush. I’ve bought a lot of white dent corn. It is fluffier when cooked. But yellow corn is good too!

Personally, we have decided to not grow corn the first year and instead focus on other vegetables and animals. That is why I’ve stock piled a lot of dent corn. Enough for two years of not growing. But we would certainly be putting corn into the ground at the beginning of the second year!

1642761077055.jpeg
 
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Good Morning Dave-V. Thanks for letting me off the hook gently. In preparing our group I was reminded of my High School days. I was an avid reader as a child but never read the school books assigned to me. I hated school but loved learning - go figure. But in working on our project I was reminded of Algebra exams I took. It was somehow obvious to me that none of the possible answers were right!

In my later years, one of my favorite writers, Robert Kiyosaki, author of Rich Dad, Poor Dad financial advise series once said, "Never fall in love with your investment." You will find you can't make rational decisions about it. That is indeed a danger for all of us, we get our emotions tied up in ourselves.

This thread also reminds me of a book I found in a yard sale. It appears to have been a publication of a student's dissertation. It was a study of various problem solving experimental seminars conducted bringing in persons from different areas of expertise. They eventually produced the following results.

Surgeons complained of cutting body parts (vessels, tendons, muscles etc) in crowded spaces (wrist) and trying to put them back together quickly in all the blood and time constraints. The phone company said we do that all the time in the field with bundles of wires by color coding them. The eventual result was color coded surgical clamps.

A fireman complained that if they could force more water through their fire hoses they could extinguish the fire faster. The surgeon said we do that now using chemicals to thin the blood making it more slippery. This resulted in "Slippery water" where soap is added to water to make it flow better through the fire hoses.

One of the last quotes from the seminar was someone from the cattle industry who summed up his seminar experience. He said before the seminars if he were put in charge of unloading a rail car of cattle he would have devised a method of teaching them to walk down a plank, but now he would just grease the plank and shove them down it.

Another book that impacted my life was on business planning and analysis. The author hit me hard when he said "If you think your business is running smoothly you haven't look closely at it for a while." What he meant is we all make decisions and set procedures in motion, but over time people change, come and go, other events occur and pretty soon your procedure is out of touch.

Thanks so much to all of you folks here. You have re-educated me to continue to examine all of our decisions one more time just to see how they all fit together. Things change over time. My trip here has been profitable, thanks again for the conversation folks.
 
Yep, speaking of decisions - we re-evaluated the decision to move all our generators off of the top of the parking deck where we felt they were less secure to the secure trench but failed (somehow?!) in the heat of urgency to not consider sufficiently the more likely threat of flooding!

Emotion definitely leads to some bad decisions and "group-think" contributes. We're so agreeable with each other that no one was trying to be devil's advocate!

All generators are now back on top but now with improved security and their enclosure has been Faraday caged so all the advantages offered by moving them below ground have been duplicated. This all came at a hefty price that we wouldn't have accrued had we been paying attention. We want to be able to be agile in decision making, but we'll remember this mistake to help us make future decisions of magnitude.
 
Yep, speaking of decisions - we re-evaluated the decision to move all our generators off of the top of the parking deck where we felt they were less secure to the secure trench but failed (somehow?!) in the heat of urgency to not consider sufficiently the more likely threat of flooding!

Emotion definitely leads to some bad decisions and "group-think" contributes. We're so agreeable with each other that no one was trying to be devil's advocate!

All generators are now back on top but now with improved security and their enclosure has been Faraday caged so all the advantages offered by moving them below ground have been duplicated. This all came at a hefty price that we wouldn't have accrued had we been paying attention. We want to be able to be agile in decision making, but we'll remember this mistake to help us make future decisions of magnitude.
Having someone play Devil's Advocate on every major decision is crucial. We actually assign someone for each project, as the "Designated Asshole." 🤣
 
Our new gunsmith came on board in December with big plans for our firing range.
He has moved lightning fast, obviously knows the right vendors to get what he wants and is extraordinary at getting our fabricators to do what he needs and make the transportation arrangements. We have more that 100 containers stored with our fabricators (for future dwellings,) and these containers, while almost new when we purchased them (during the Obama years,) are now at least 10 years old. They have to be cleaned up and custom prepared during these times of labor shortages, but somehow, he already has the end two units on the road to be installed next week! I’m not looking forward to the on-site welding and noise, but I think it will be worthwhile. His plan is to modernize our 25 yard, 4 position range to a 100 yard, 4 position range. That means moving our “retail row” containers somewhere else (he’s already got it done!) and modifying our existing range made up of six 40-foot containers (2 wide and triple connected) and replacing it with 16 (!!) 40-foot containers (2 wide and 8 lengthwise.)
My understanding is that only the outside edge of the eight containers along the inside of the facility has to be reinforced and a wall from ground to ceiling will be built after the containers are in place and welded.
He SAYS it will be insulated so well that you might be able to hear a plinking sound if you're at the wall and at the end where the backstop is and no firing noise at all. (I will believe this when I see/hear it!)
The ventilation system is also being completely redone and there will be negative air pressure inside the range. The new backstop area (which will now be deeper than before) has a bullet capture system that decelerates the bullets, so they don’t vaporize and then automatically collects them for recycling.
The ventilation output is behind the backstop and is being vented into the nearby woods. He says the lead vapor will be extremely low because of the capture system. We had no idea what we were missing, I can’t wait!
 
Our new gunsmith came on board in December with big plans for our firing range.
He has moved lightning fast, obviously knows the right vendors to get what he wants and is extraordinary at getting our fabricators to do what he needs and make the transportation arrangements. We have more that 100 containers stored with our fabricators (for future dwellings,) and these containers, while almost new when we purchased them (during the Obama years,) are now at least 10 years old. They have to be cleaned up and custom prepared during these times of labor shortages, but somehow, he already has the end two units on the road to be installed next week! I’m not looking forward to the on-site welding and noise, but I think it will be worthwhile. His plan is to modernize our 25 yard, 4 position range to a 100 yard, 4 position range. That means moving our “retail row” containers somewhere else (he’s already got it done!) and modifying our existing range made up of six 40-foot containers (2 wide and triple connected) and replacing it with 16 (!!) 40-foot containers (2 wide and 8 lengthwise.)
My understanding is that only the outside edge of the eight containers along the inside of the facility has to be reinforced and a wall from ground to ceiling will be built after the containers are in place and welded.
He SAYS it will be insulated so well that you might be able to hear a plinking sound if you're at the wall and at the end where the backstop is and no firing noise at all. (I will believe this when I see/hear it!)
The ventilation system is also being completely redone and there will be negative air pressure inside the range. The new backstop area (which will now be deeper than before) has a bullet capture system that decelerates the bullets, so they don’t vaporize and then automatically collects them for recycling.
The ventilation output is behind the backstop and is being vented into the nearby woods. He says the lead vapor will be extremely low because of the capture system. We had no idea what we were missing, I can’t wait!
Triple check the ventilation. It's one thing for the theory to look good on paper. It's another for it to play out in the real world.

I work fulltime as an instructor on the range for my PD. The PD just built a multi-million dollar semi enclosed range, using the biggest name in the business to do it. They ran all the math, looked at the hundreds of ranges they had built elsewhere, and assured us the lead and noise levels would be no different than our outdoor range.

Fast-forward to several months later, and all of us are dealing with elevated lead levels, and several have chronic headaches from the blast. Granted, the ones with the headaches are using the cheapest combo of ear pro they can find (foamies under Walmart muffs), but still...

I am now running Ops Core AMPs with NFMI plugs, and an Ops Core SOTR when I am on the range. No headaches, and lead levels plummeting. Still, not an optimal solution.
 
Yes, eliminating the lead vaporization, the negative pressure, and the beefed-up ventilation, (and NOT recirculated) is what sold me. We've got kids using the range and none of us want anyone to get stupider from lead exposure! The extensive noise baffling is supposed to eliminate a lot of the noise, but everyone will be wearing at least 30+dB NRR ear protection. Most use 3M 7500 masks with P100 filters.
 
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I can see I've fallen in with professionals here.

I am not a real gun person and we have a small group that prefers not to train unless it is time to get serious.

Therefore, we inventoried half a dozen 22 rifles and lots of quiet (subsonic) ammunition.
I heard a rumor that we have homemade silencers for them.
This combination makes less sound than a BB gun.
When we activate non-shooters will be trained on the 22s first.

When proficient we will march them through the woods before daybreak to a creek a mile away
and let them bang away with their own weapons.
The amount of firing should insure they are unmolested. After dark they will return to base.

We have several laser pistols for continuous training on handguns.
They can dry practice on their own handguns for reloading, safety operation, etc.

We have defensive positions already built that require at most 30 yard firing for all but sniper platforms.
All forward positions will have spare shotguns in case a weapon needs field cleaning.

Upon activation we will color- code rifle stocks & handgun handles so if one picks up a weapon he knows what ammo to reload with.
 
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. . . And then we have our Gate Whacker for the bilnd person in the group.

We got an old 5 station Football Tackling machine (you can fabricate very easily).
Each upriser pipe is 3 feet from the next, for a total distance of 15 feet, the width of our driveway gate.

The wacker will be moved to our side of the gate.

We installed a $30 12 Gauge Shotgun Alarm to each upriser,
pointing forward. A 3/4 inch galvanized pipe, 2 inches longer than the shell,
is slid over each shell.

Keep spare sleeves so you can reload quickly and search the ground later.
If shooting starts the guard pulls a cord firing all five #8 bird shot shells at the intruders,
who are squeezed in by fake sections of barb wire fencing creating a bottle neck at the gate.

A second pull-cord fires five rounds of buckshot just in case.
The pull-cords are in camouflaged painted PVC pipes.

Why risk your life when it can be automated?

For the gun pros, a third cord is a safety that must be released first.
 
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Yes, eliminating the lead vaporization, the negative pressure, and the beefed-up ventilation, (and NOT recirculated) is what sold me. We've got kids using the range and none of us want anyone to get stupider from lead exposure! The extensive noise baffling is supposed to eliminate a lot of the noise, but everyone will be wearing at least 30+dB NRR ear protection. Most use 3M 7500 masks with P100 filters.
I'm sure you know this, but NRRs are not additive. Adding earplugs to ear muffs gives 5 extra NRR. So, if your muffs offer 30 NRR, adding 30 NRR plugs does not give you a total NRR of 60, but rather 35.

We have lots of baffling. It does nothing for the concussive force. Just fyi. We are actually considering requiring suppressors for patrol rifles. Shotguns can only be shot on our open-air range.

At the BOL, we have a significant range footprint. One 2000 yd UKD range, one 1000 yd KD range, one 300 yd range, and four 50 yd ranges. Then two 360-degree ranges, a livefire shoothouse, and a NLTA (Non-Lethal Training Ammunition, aka Simunitions or UTM) village. All except for the shoothouse and village are open-sky.

When we shoot rifles in the house, or inside vehicles, suppressors are used. NLTA are already hearing safe.
 
Also, I highly recommend D-Lead products for cleanup. You will have lead dust, regardless of what system you use. Male sure whoever cleans it up is in full PPE (Tyvek suits, masks, gloves), that the PPE is deconned after use, that you don't sweep the range (use a HEPA filter shopvac), and that you wash hands usong cold, not hot water afterwards.
 

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