Faraday cage question

[firewallsrus]

Would you care to be a bit more detailed about what the heck you are talking about. Since the OP is about Faraday cages, are you saying they work or that they don't work? I would enjoy seeing documented proof they will work against an EMP attack or a major Solar Storm. All my research has been inconclusive.

Sorry about that. If you read the whole thread, you'll find that in my initial responses, I mentioned that nothing is 10o percent, but I gave the cell phone test as a starting point on testing. My latest responses had to do with a poster commenting that he personally had no need or use of technology, and so therefore would not be spending time working on a Faraday cage. It is a bit more complicated than that, but the OP seems to be asking questions about how to build one, not whether they are effective.

For proof as to whether a cage will work against a CME, we may have to wait until such an event happens. The last time was the Carrington event over 150 years ago. A CME might be the worst case scenario because of the duration. There seems to be a lot written about Faraday cages, both positive and negative.

I think everything including an EMP attack is relative. Protection from EMP, like ballistic protection is relative as well and I think government research papers point this out although I don't recall the precise source. A soldier could be wearing great body armor, but I would still advise them to duck when shots are fired.

 

[firewallsrus]

...Also be prepared to live without any of it working.

Well put. As should we all.

 

[bigpaul]

It isn't a personal attack at all. It is an attack on false facts. Army's are at more of a disadvantage when armed with false-facts, than with incomplete information. I welcome your opinions as readily as anyone else's, as long as people aren't being encouraged to confuse fact with opinion.

To give an extreme example: I could state as an opinion that "I think the weapon is unloaded." (For the record I can't think of a situation where I would say that.) Even if someone thought me to be generally knowledgeable, they should be giving it only the weight of an opinion and quickly discard the information. On the other hand, it would be irresponsible of me to make the statement; "This weapon is unloaded." This is how people get hurt. For that reason, I would rather opinions be stated as such. So no, it is not a personal attack, but an attack on facts not in evidence.

And yes, your "facts" are correct. Paris, Texas where I live does have a population of around 25,000. Then again, I don't think I have ever told anyone that I live "off-grid" or that it is any part of my strategy. When stating actual facts, it is a great idea to back them up as you did above with references.

When I retired, I moved away from the city to Paris specifically to bug out to a manageable community. My research (and yes, it is just my opinion) is that at 25,000, an agrarian community is just the right size for post-collapse. I am not a hermit, nor do I believe a solitary existence will assist this great nation to rebuild after whatever happens. Small Mutual Assistance groups are full of potential "gotchas" and in my "opinion", they don't have much promise for long term survival.

As far as I can recall, the only fact I have brought up is that nobody knows the manner, timeline, or after-effects of TEOTWAWKI. The rest of it is merely my opinion.

i never said I am off grid, I was for 12 years and post SHTF will be again, I know what I have to do to survive in this manner as I have done it before and will do so again.
I am not a hermit either but I do believe in personal survival, I don't think 25,000 or even one tenth of that is survivable, too many ego's to contend with, nor do I believe any sort of nation rebuilding will be possible in the lifetime of anyone on this forum.

 

[TexasFreedom]

i never said I am off grid, I was for 12 years and post SHTF will be again, I know what I have to do to survive in this manner as I have done it before and will do so again.
I am not a hermit either but I do believe in personal survival, I don't think 25,000 or even one tenth of that is survivable, too many ego's to contend with, nor do I believe any sort of nation rebuilding will be possible in the lifetime of anyone on this forum.

BP, I think you'd be surprised how quickly society will re-structure & rebuild. Not to what we have now, but to at least an organized structure as nations (redrawn of course). Look at history. Heck, look at the book of Kings in the Old Testament. I'm not bring religion into this, but as a history of how a culture goes up & down, gets knocked down & gets up, faces chaos & recovers. About every other generation it happened. There is a natural desire for structure like this. And it's not a lifetime, but months or maybe a year or two. Very quickly.

 

[bigpaul]

wishful thinking my friend, when SHTF and we return to life similar to earlier times most people in the UK wont be able to live without their modern technology and lack of skills and will succumb to their fate, the ones that are left will be fewer in number and spread wide apart. it will take many many years to get "society" in any shape or form and to get back to where we are today, many generations, even if it is possible, it wont be in the lifetime of anyone alive on this forum or any other. to think otherwise is not logical.
life post SHTF will be more basic and simpler than anything that happens today.
not many people want to acknowledge this much less face up to it.

 

[DrHenley]

There is a natural desire for structure like this. And it's not a lifetime, but months or maybe a year or two. Very quickly.

Or in other words...

"Nature abhors a vacuum" (Aristotle)

 

[firewallsrus]

Based on what I have seen and read in the live and after-action reports via mass media and ham radio reports of regional disasters. What I suspect might happen as the result of a sudden and total collapse. This is only one scenario and likely wouldn't apply outside of the USA:

In the first couple of days, there would simply be a lot of confusion. Only cash will be viable as a currency some people would hunker down at home, churches and charitable groups would activate emergency shelters and feed the needy.

After a couple of days, those who hunkered down at home would be running out of food and would emerge to find the emergency shelters nearing capacity.

By the end of the first week, even the most prepared emergency shelters will be running out of food and the volunteers staffing them will be starting to wonder if they can afford to be so generous with their time. Most people would still be anticipating the promised arrival of FEMA relief. By this time, gangs would be fully aware that law enforcement is stretched beyond their capability, so criminal activity would be getting bolder. The increase in violence would be met by armed citizens who would still outnumber the bad guys (for the moment).

The remainder of the first month might be complete anarchy. Roving street gangs using up all the resources in their urban home-territories. (From the way looters have moved through supplies in the recent past, I expect food to be used at something like five percent efficiency with most going to waste.) If I'm right, the gangs will not be able to sweep through rural areas for more than a few short weeks. This is because if a farmer has enough food for his family for a year, it might only last a large (25?) band of attackers a couple of days before they would have to take over another well-prepared farm. Nearby farmers aren't going to wait like sheep, so things will be tougher as time goes on.

Also during the first month, the cash only economy will progress through precious metals to a pure barter system.

Roving gangs should become smaller and smaller as they realize that a dozen bad guys taking over a subsistence farmer is like three kids trying to share one hard candy in that dividing the candy generally leaves it a useless pile of dust. At some point the survivors would probably be rounded up and hung from light poles as examples.

People may barricade their neighborhoods, or small towns to keep attackers out. This means committing extensive resources to security at a time when people will need to be scrambling to establish new food and water sources and resource distribution models. There will be a lot of stress and even well-behaved towns will see a high level of violence.

Most rural small towns in USA are capable of getting by with local resources, and after the worst of the gangs are starved out. There are a lot of things small town dwellers and rural farmers would do without, but I would rather be a farmer without computers than a computer tech without corn.

A greatly reduced population would probably make it easier for small communities to survive and begin supporting each other as they did less than 100 years ago. Remaining technology would be used its best potential. Once a town becomes stable, they would certainly reach out to neighboring communities to trade for things that each community could use to better themselves.

As things come back together, barter will be less and less viable, so gold and more especially silver will likely find frequent use as a currency until a more formal system can be developed.

Technology wouldn't bounce back right away, but America has a history of innovation going back to the Dutch Oven. New things would be invented and people would continue to broaden their contacts with communities, counties, states and finally the nation.

My final prediction:
Woe be to the nation that tries to take advantage of America's weakness. Behind every blade of grass, they will find a rifleman. There are currently more firearms in civilian hands in the USA than there are people. We appear to argue with each other, but outsiders will find a united front.

 

[tmttactical]

We are a bit (okay a lot) off the OP. But playing devils advocate, here is my take for when the lights go out (EMP disaster). The firs two days will be minor ciaos. No credit / debit cards cash only -- minor riots and some looting in the poorer parts of towns / cities. Day 3+ and the folks realize there is no water, food preservation (all frozen and refrigerated food is gone) or no supplies available (sold, stolen or simply run out -- no deliveries). Now it hit the fan and it is only gong to get worse. Now th riots are city wide and there is no possibility of it being contained or halted. All the LEO's will either be at home (protecting their families) or have rounded up their families and hunkered down at the command / Emergency command centers. Most will discover they need what they think other have and are not sharing. This is the start of the BIG die off. Yes there will be gang activities but also massive civilian against each other. Now you are into week 2 and It has become dog eat dog. If you venture out, then you are a target, because if you are still alive, you must have food and water. By the end of week 2, 90% of th city will be dead and another 8 percent will be dying. Only about 2% of th city population will survive.

Now lets cut to the chase, with only say 10% of the national population surviving, who is going to rebuild the grid? No power to operate even the most basic manufacturing. No fuel, no raw materials, no fabrication plants, no transportation and the most important commodity, no labor pool. It will not just be th riff-raff that are lost in the die off. It will most likely be the very people and talent required to rebuild. Now remove 90% of all the skilled people and do you think the infrastructure is really going to be rebuilt in just a few years? How many people would have the skill set to find the damaged sections of the grid? How many would have the skills to build a new transformer? I can go on for a long time but you all get the point? Not enough talent left . First they needed people would have to be found. Than all the needed equipment would have to be located and moved to a central manufacturing site. All the located essential people would be relocated to this central manufacturing location. Then and only then would the government be able to even start to rebuild. Now comes the fun part, where do you rebuild first? The common consensus is the cities will get the aid first. I disagree, after a national disaster of national proportions, the cities have little to no value. The cities are now just the national junk yards to be scavenged. The country will need the farms and ranches back on line long before they will need big cities. The new central rebuilding point will be located along a major river, same way the country first started to expand.

Now some reference history and how the collapse has never taken a long time to rebuild. But history has never had a collapse where the the current modes of transportation was wiped out over night. When the grid goes down, all current modes of our civilized transportation system gos out the window. ow long will it take to raise more draft animals? Learn / teach people to make harness or wagon or plows or any of the million items that the people will need and not have? Now for the good news, YES, we will rebuild, we are that kind of nation and the survivors will be those kind of people. It is just going to take a lot longer than most people expect.

 

[JackDW]

My first post on this Forum, so please be gentle.

Getting back to the initial question regarding Faraday protection. I realize that everything is just speculation and the best we can do is "guess". I have a couple small medal (steel) building that I store some equipment. As I understand the weakness in these are the floor which are normally plywood or concrete. If I put a layer of steel (roof panel) on the floor (tied into the steel wall panels) and cover that with plywood, what are your thoughts of that creating enough protection for "non sensitive" equipment. What I am thinking about is riding mowers (or ATVs) and Generators. For more sensitive equipment (ie Backup Solar charge controllers and inverters), I plan to put in some medal shelving lined with cardboard and then cover the shelving unit with medal window screening. I have seen many designs for building smaller Faraday Cages but I am looking for storing bigger equipment using existing items. Don't want to tie up a lot of money for something that most likely will never be used so hopefully I can use what I have with very minor changes. Opinions?

 

[WGregMiller]

My first post on this Forum, so please be gentle.

Getting back to the initial question regarding Faraday protection. I realize that everything is just speculation and the best we can do is "guess". I have a couple small medal (steel) building that I store some equipment. As I understand the weakness in these are the floor which are normally plywood or concrete. If I put a layer of steel (roof panel) on the floor (tied into the steel wall panels) and cover that with plywood, what are your thoughts of that creating enough protection for "non sensitive" equipment. What I am thinking about is riding mowers (or ATVs) and Generators. For more sensitive equipment (ie Backup Solar charge controllers and inverters), I plan to put in some medal shelving lined with cardboard and then cover the shelving unit with medal window screening. I have seen many designs for building smaller Faraday Cages but I am looking for storing bigger equipment using existing items. Don't want to tie up a lot of money for something that most likely will never be used so hopefully I can use what I have with very minor changes. Opinions?

We are gentle.... some days, as long as everyone is taking their meds, lol.

I like the idea, however, from what I’ve read, is that your steel ‘cage’ has to be grounded. In other words, you’d have to protect any openings (cracks or gaps) and have it all connected together to a ground rod. I’d think that the entire cage would need to be connected together (the floor and walls) as well.

The biggest problem is that we don’t have a way to test anything without an emp....

 

[JackDW]

Thanks WGregMilller. The one thing I was unsure about is the grounding of the building. Some people say to ground it, other do no. Logic tells me to ground it. Also, there is NO wiring going into the buildings. If it was wired that seems to create more issues. All parts of the building will be connected together Roof, Walls and eventually the floors. I have aluminum tape over all seams where the panels fit together. Was put there to protect against insects but should help here too. Another thought that occurred after reading your response, is while the doors fit close and makes contact, if I roll up a piece of window screen and attach to one side of the doors, when I close them, the window screen will provide additional protection (contact) around the doors.

Thanks, this is they type of feedback I was looking for. Each suggestion will make the building more and more secure. And more important, very little additional work or expense.

 

[WGregMiller]

Thanks WGregMilller. The one thing I was unsure about is the grounding of the building. Some people say to ground it, other do no. Logic tells me to ground it. Also, there is NO wiring going into the buildings. If it was wired that seems to create more issues. All parts of the building will be connected together Roof, Walls and eventually the floors. I have aluminum tape over all seams where the panels fit together. Was put there to protect against insects but should help here too. Another thought that occurred after reading your response, is while the doors fit close and makes contact, if I roll up a piece of window screen and attach to one side of the doors, when I close them, the window screen will provide additional protection (contact) around the doors.

Thanks, this is they type of feedback I was looking for. Each suggestion will make the building more and more secure. And more important, very little additional work or expense.

We looked into electromagnetic blocking materials for someone looking to build a house,

I found a ton of stuff, up to including wall paint with silver in it to block emf radiation, complete with grounding blocks. One vendor even sold silver mesh to put over stuff. All expensive, as well.

 

[JackDW]

We looked into electromagnetic blocking materials for someone looking to build a house,

I found a ton of stuff, up to including wall paint with silver in it to block emf radiation, complete with grounding blocks. One vendor even sold silver mesh to put over stuff. All expensive, as well.

Thanks again for the information. This sounds very interesting, especially the wall paint. This, I would use in a storage building or garage. I will not even try to protect the house as it has too many entry points. Some, like the old telephone lines, are no longer used but they still penetrate the house. I currently have a large garage (30' x 40') with several older classic cars (a 70 Nova SS which I purchased new when in HS, 72 Duster that wifey purchased new in HS and an old Jeep Cherokee (big old 2 door version) that was my dads). I will look into these materials to see if I can update the garage enough to allow me to protect newer vehicles and/or power equipment.

 

[WGregMiller]

Thanks again for the information. This sounds very interesting, especially the wall paint. This, I would use in a storage building or garage. I will not even try to protect the house as it has too many entry points. Some, like the old telephone lines, are no longer used but they still penetrate the house. I currently have a large garage (30' x 40') with several older classic cars (a 70 Nova SS which I purchased new when in HS, 72 Duster that wifey purchased new in HS and an old Jeep Cherokee (big old 2 door version) that was my dads). I will look into these materials to see if I can update the garage enough to allow me to protect newer vehicles and/or power equipment.

I think this is the place - http://emfsafetystore.com/

 

[JackDW]

Thanks again...... I think. I was afraid that joining this site may be bad for the pocketbook. We mostly travel away from home to attend specific car shows throughout the country. Not the classic cars but newer "collectible" type cars. When parking at night (at a hotel), we normally put a cover over the car to protect against door dings and bad weather (Hail ). After reviewing some of the cloth on your last link, I am considering purchasing some to attached to my car cover. While not 100% protection, it may be enough to allow the car to survive so we can get home. My goal is NOT to protect for every situation but if I can increase my odds with small minor changes, I think it would be worth it.