EMP - Is what I'm reading a Joke or something?

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Murphy

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Since I'm new here, I thought I'd start with a little background.. I'm an electrical engineer, although I'm not a very good one! LOL, and my hobbies are Astrophysics and Quantum Mechanics.. No, I am not a physicist, its just a hobby.

I've been reading threads in forums like this one about prepping to see if I can get some ideas and to make sure I haven't overlooked anything important in my own plans.

One of the things that concerns me is the mass amount of missinformation concerning EMP events. Its like a bad nightmare reading this stuff.
I've seen some information that is accurate, but most is lousy garbage.. seems like only about 1% of what is being said is realistic.

So with that in mind, here's the short version on EMP.

EMP Pulses are classified into three basic categories. E1, E2, and E3

E1 Pulse - This is a very high amplitude, very short and very high frequency pulse that will induce between 20,000 to a theoretical maximum of 50,000 volts per meter into any conductive antenna (surface). The pulse lasts a ridiculously short time of something like 50 nanoseconds and if I remember correctly, it can achieve its maximum amplitude in under 10 nanoseconds.
An E1 pulse is produced when a nuclear weapon is detonated near, but not in, Earth's atmosphere. It is created when gamma rays, traveling through space, collide with atmosphere and strip electrons away from the atoms that make up the atmosphere. The nuclear weapon must be detonated at the right altitude or its effectiveness is diminished. Too high far out into space and the inverse square law of wave propagation will diminish its strength, too close and its effective area is diminished due to line-of-sight.

Using a metal trash can to protect against an E1 pulse is like using a sheet of cardboard to protect yourself from gunfire. Not only is it going to be ineffective, but there's a chance it could make things worse. (if they could get worse).

Faraday cages designed to mitigate the effects of E1 pulses must be made of thick metal like 14 gauge, and be multi-layered with steel, aluminum, and sometimes even copper layers that are individually insulated from each other. Pretty much any hole larger than 1/8 of an inch, or any hatch or cover that is not electrically bonded to the rest of the cage, will render the entire thing useless.


E2 Pulse - This is lightening.. Most any metal cage is enough.. The bigger the holes in the cage, the better that conducting material should be.. A metal trashcan would be very effective.. Aluminum window screen, or even chicken wire made of copper would work fine.

E3 Pulse - This is what is created when the Sun farts in our direction.. its called a CME (Coronal Mass Ejection) An E3 pulse will induce about 1 volt per meter of conductive material.. In other words, NO FARADAY CAGE NEEDED if you're on the ground.
But don't let that fool you, a CME that is big enough will still send us all back to the stone age.. That 1 volt per meter adds up fast when you consider the length of electrical transmission lines and what happens to that power when it goes through a transformer... Pretty much anything electronic that is plugged into the power grid will be instantly fried... Your microwave, refrigerator, coffee maker, electric shaver, your furnace and air conditioner, all your light bulbs, and pretty much all the transformers on all the utility poles... Everything will be fried when a million electron volts flows through them for several minutes! Yes, E3 pulses are quite long.. so long, that it causes metal conductors to heat up and melt.. this is why transformers go poof!
But all your electronics that are NOT plugged into the grid will be fine! Your car will still work, your cell phone, laptop (if not charging), and everything else that is not connected in some way, will still work..

Of course, it should be said that none of it will work for very long if you can't figure out how to recharge them.. and there won't be any gasoline at the gas station for your car, or cell phone towers to connect to, bla bla bla.

Because E3 pulses are such long waves and induce such small voltages per meter, no Faraday cages are needed.. That is of course, unless you're on the space station...

A note on Nuclear EMP... Nuclear detonations designed to radiate EMP pulses have a radius of around 1200 to 1400 miles.. If you are lucky enough to be on the last 100 (or so) mile edge of that radius, and your electronics are in a trashcan, you might have a chance for them to survive.. But again, its a slim chance.
 
Thanks for the information! While I know if it's on he internet it is the truth (sarcasm to say the least!), the information is all over the place.

It almost sounds like you're telling us that an E1 pulse can't be prepped for in any easy way....

Welcome to the forum. There is a lot of good information to be found and we're pretty easy to get along with. I would suggest going to the new member section and introducing yourself.
 
Thanks for the information! While I know if it's on he internet it is the truth (sarcasm to say the least!), the information is all over the place.

It almost sounds like you're telling us that an E1 pulse can't be prepped for in any easy way....

Welcome to the forum. There is a lot of good information to be found and we're pretty easy to get along with. I would suggest going to the new member section and introducing yourself.

That is correct.. You CAN NOT easily prepare for an E1 pulse... But there are some quasi-cheap ways I've thought of. Purchase a metal 55 gallon drum.. the kind where the top is clamped on and comes off.. Wrap the inside with a 1/4 inch of rubber sheeting.. like the stuff they use for pond liners.. Then add another layer of 20-22 gauge aluminum sheet, then another 1/4 inch layer of pond sheeting, then some copper foil..

You'll have to figure out a way to do the same with the top that snaps on.. Actually, you'd have three tops.. a top for the copper, then insulation, then another top for the aluminum, then more insulation, then you clamp the top onto the 55 gallon drum.. Be sure to remove the rubber seal that the 55 gallon drum tops have.. you must have clean metal to metal contact. Might be a good idea to even attach some grounding straps between the drum lid and the drum body. The layers of steel, aluminum and copper MUST be isolated from each other.

Be sure to strip the pain off the outside of the drum and re-paint with a conductive paint.

Bar a detonation directly over your head, I think the drum idea might protect 90% of electronics 90% of the time. Not bad odds for something that only cost maybe $150 to build. I think I'm going to build one myself this summer.. Store a multimeter in it, CB or Ham radio, Battery Charger, and a laptop so I have a way to access all my DVD's with survival information on them...

One of those "Tough Box" tool boxes would also work.. since they're square, they might be easier to install the insulated layers too.. Just make sure to electrically bond the lid to the body with quality bonding straps.. the hinge is NOT enough.
 
what about solar panels will it fry them,,,also underground bunkers under at least 3ft of soil are items there safe or not....................

Yup.. an E1 pulse will fry your entire system, including stuff buried up to around 6 feet underground depending on your soil type... Don't feel too bad, I'm about to install a 6KW system myself using Solar World panels and a SunnyBoy grid tie inverter..
You need not worry about an E3 pulse from a CME.. While it will probably (50/50?) fry your inverter, I think the panels themselves will survive.. At least your solar panels will still be able to charge batteries.. and after a week or two, there will be an abundance of 12 volt batteries laying around when gasoline runs out. Every lawn mower, car, truck, tractor, and motorcycle has a 12 volt battery and large 300 watt solar panels put out just the right voltage to charge two 12 volt batteries hooked in series at 24 volts. You'll want a multimeter to constantly check when they're fully charged however!

E1 pulses will induce voltages and currents into the ground so anything buried there like electrical cables will still act like antenna's.. That's not to say that burying something won't help, it will.. just don't count on it alone.. If you're going to go that far, bury your Faraday cage...
 
Thought I would add the following about EMP disaster..
The USA has a robust ballistic missile defense system.. While it would not be capable of defending against hundreds of incoming objects from Russia or China(?), it would certainly be capable of knocking out a single missile attack by North Korea or some rogue terrorist organization.. In other words, I don't believe an EMP via nuclear detonation is a big probability.. But I am certain that it will absolutely happen one day from our Sun, and if I was a betting man, I'd say it will happen within the next decade.. The only question is how powerful will it be.. A Quebec style event would be a headache... a Carrington event would wipe out 80 to 90 percent of the population within three years.
I'm preparing for a Carrington event because I don't think anyone would be stupid enough to detonate a bomb over the USA due to the repercussions.
 
I agree. Hopefully everyone knows what would follow. Not sure about N Korea, but I think he talks a lot and hasn't got any intention of trying that.
 
Thought I would add the following about EMP disaster..
The USA has a robust ballistic missile defense system.. While it would not be capable of defending against hundreds of incoming objects from Russia or China(?), it would certainly be capable of knocking out a single missile attack by North Korea or some rogue terrorist organization.. In other words, I don't believe an EMP via nuclear detonation is a big probability.. But I am certain that it will absolutely happen one day from our Sun, and if I was a betting man, I'd say it will happen within the next decade.. The only question is how powerful will it be.. A Quebec style event would be a headache... a Carrington event would wipe out 80 to 90 percent of the population within three years.
I'm preparing for a Carrington event because I don't think anyone would be stupid enough to detonate a bomb over the USA due to the repercussions.

if and that is a big if because I don't really believe any Nation wants to start a Nuclear war
it would be devastating with sever loss of life within just a few years,,,,I don't think I will see a Carrington event in my life time,,,when you really think about it we may be prepping for nothing,but I won't take that chance there are other things that could put us in the Dark Ages again,a pandemic or a asteroid strike,,how about Yellowstone erupting ,,,,,who knows for sure,,,,

I would rather be ready than caught unprepared ,,,prep on
 
if and that is a big if because I don't really believe any Nation wants to start a Nuclear war
it would be devastating with sever loss of life within just a few years,,,,I don't think I will see a Carrington event in my life time,,,when you really think about it we may be prepping for nothing,but I won't take that chance there are other things that could put us in the Dark Ages again,a pandemic or a asteroid strike,,how about Yellowstone erupting ,,,,,who knows for sure,,,,

I would rather be ready than caught unprepared ,,,prep on
A Carrington event is actually quite likely in the next twenty years... I read somewhere that Carrington events are thought to occur once every 100 to 150 years and we're there now.. They say the chances are 1% for each year so there's a 10% chance in the next decade and 20% chance in the next two decades. The fact is, CME's happen all the time.. as in monthly.. but they're usually small and usually not pointed at Earth.. but they do point at Earth occasionally.. we even have a government agency that monitors and reports "Space Weather" so commercial entities can put their satellites into "safe modes"..

Humanity has never experienced a large event in modern times.. its the "out of sight, out of mind" phenomenon... Personally, a CME is why I started prepping.. As an amateur astro-nut who reads astrophysics and astronomy news every day, I know for a fact that some other stars have large CME events on a regular basis.. and some of them are so big they are capable of stripping the atmosphere away from the planet and killing everything.. Don't get too alarmed, our "G" type star is fairly stable as they go.. but don't think it "might" happen.. you need to think "when will it happen and how bad will it be".

If it wasn't for CME concerns, I wouldn't be prepping as I do... most other scenarios are nothing but a headache for a few weeks..
 
We had a Carrington type event not so long ago that caused chaos in Canada mid winter, I think it was over Quebec a CME overloaded the power network. Fortunately unlike the original Carrington even we have circuit breakers, fuses and other safety measures that did not exist back then so the effects will be quicker to fix, though still likely to cause chaos for a while.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-12/how-solar-storms-affect-earth/5740454

1989: Solar storms shut down power grids
INFOGRAPHIC: Artist's depiction of solar wind colliding with Earth's magnetosphere (NASA)


In March 1989, space weather events caused transformers to fail, prompting a nine-hour blackout affecting more than 6 million people in Quebec, Canada.

Communications networks around the globe were affected, prompting speculation the Kremlin was jamming radio signals, while short-wave radio frequencies used by commercial pilots also suffered fadeouts.

"In space, some satellites actually tumbled out of control for several hours," NASA says.

Space weather researcher and electrical engineer David Boteler says the 1989 event "is the most significant space weather event for the power industry", and changed many minds about the potential impacts.

"Before 1989, believing in space weather effects on power systems was regarded by some as equivalent to believing in little green men from outer space," he said.

1989: Canadian share trades halted
INFOGRAPHIC: An excerpt from a NASA infographic shows how space weather can affect technological infrastructure. (NASA)


The Toronto stock market in Canada halted trading after solar activity crashed a series of computer hard drives in August 1989.

Trading was stopped for three hours.

"I don't know what the gods were doing to us," said exchange vice-president John Kane.
 
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I agree, it's not if, but when we get hit by a cme. Luckily, even if we get hit, it's size and intensity is going to dictate how much of an effect it has. Let's just keep hoping for the smaller end of the scale.
One thing I haven't read about is the effect on batteries. I wonder if a strong one could toast a car battery?
 
Yup.. an E1 pulse will fry your entire system, including stuff buried up to around 6 feet underground depending on your soil type... Don't feel too bad, I'm about to install a 6KW system myself using Solar World panels and a SunnyBoy grid tie inverter..
You need not worry about an E3 pulse from a CME.. While it will probably (50/50?) fry your inverter, I think the panels themselves will survive.. At least your solar panels will still be able to charge batteries.. and after a week or two, there will be an abundance of 12 volt batteries laying around when gasoline runs out. Every lawn mower, car, truck, tractor, and motorcycle has a 12 volt battery and large 300 watt solar panels put out just the right voltage to charge two 12 volt batteries hooked in series at 24 volts. You'll want a multimeter to constantly check when they're fully charged however!

E1 pulses will induce voltages and currents into the ground so anything buried there like electrical cables will still act like antenna's.. That's not to say that burying something won't help, it will.. just don't count on it alone.. If you're going to go that far, bury your Faraday cage...
I'm putting in a 12kw off grid system this spring. Will an off grid system be less vulnerable to a CME or EMP than a grid tied system?
 
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Thanks for the tip on the metal drums. Here, I can usually get them for like $20.
 
I agree, it's not if, but when we get hit by a cme. Luckily, even if we get hit, it's size and intensity is going to dictate how much of an effect it has. Let's just keep hoping for the smaller end of the scale.
One thing I haven't read about is the effect on batteries. I wonder if a strong one could toast a car battery?

oh yes I reckon we could be done some massive damage from a head on CME, and it could leave huge chunks of the world in serious trouble for a long time and its us with the preps in place who will be best placed to survive it AND to suffer the least. I could envisage places being in the dark for possible 6 months to two years perhaps even longer.
 
I'm putting in a 12kw off grid system this spring. Will an off grid system be less vulnerable to a CME or EMP than a grid tied system?

Not sure but I reckon and off grid system could be nearly as vulnerable as the mains supply, but at least off grid you wont be affected by huge surges traveling along the national grid network and blowing everything it passes. It may be prudent to keep a couple of panels, regultors and battteries stored in a faraday cage.
 
I agree, it's not if, but when we get hit by a cme. Luckily, even if we get hit, it's size and intensity is going to dictate how much of an effect it has. Let's just keep hoping for the smaller end of the scale.
One thing I haven't read about is the effect on batteries. I wonder if a strong one could toast a car battery?
Unless its plugged in and charging, batteries are not affected by Nuclear EMP or Solar EMP.. I know for a fact that normal lead acid car batteries are not affected and I'm 99.9% sure that flashlight type batteries are not affected... I do have some reservations about the compact lithium batteries however... they have a very high energy density that is achieved with some pretty thin membranes that separate the storage layers.. That said, I give them a 90% chance of being unaffected.

Batteries are, by their nature, designed to take a charge and internally disperse it for storage. A solar EMP won't affect anything on the ground that's not plugged in so we know that won't matter.. A nuclear EMP proudces up to 50,000 volts per meter but the pulse width is only nanoseconds long.. I don't think that's anywhere near long enough to cause localized heating that could affect a membrane in a battery.

In short, I think batteries are going to be the one thing that does survive.

I'm putting in a 12kw off grid system this spring. Will an off grid system be less vulnerable to a CME or EMP than a grid tied system?
An off grid system would not be affected by a Solar EMP at all... not even a little.. In fact, if your wires between your panels and your controller are long enough, you might actually get some minuscule boost in power, but it would be so small you'd need scientific instruments to detect it.

A nuclear EMP is a different animal and it will surely fry everything but your batteries if you're "in the EMP zone"
 
I don't know what to think,,if you search the web you can find many different opinions on how much damage an emp will do,,,I think in the end we will not know for certain what one can do until it happens
Agreed, there are too many variables like where, how strong, and what electrical equipment you have. I still think it's wise to have a few non electrical hand tools on hand though, just in case. Just ask yourself what you would need for your lifestyle to still function without electricity. I keep it simple and go back to the basics. Water, food, shelter and security. Just consider what it would take to make those four thing happen.
 
If we can accept there is SOME sort of risk as of yet not fully understood from either a CME or EMP event then it makes sense to take precautions, insomuch as I (for example) Keep two PV panels, Cables, Control boxes etc stored separately (disassembled) and the a battery stored as new uncharged with acid. It does no harm to accept the uncertainty of this issue but to put in place some sensible preps. We dont know if the extractor claw for our rifles is going to snap but most of us keep a spare, we dont know if the filter elements for our water filters are going to fail prematurely but we play say and keep spare elements. And it does no harm at all to try and store as much of our electrical kit such as scanners, radios, charge controllers etc in metal boxes and other devices that act as Faraday cages.
 

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